LOOKING TO PRAISE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

Saturday, May 26, 2007

Uh,oh, I'm Causin' Trouble Again

"I think I'm learning that the theology of dispensationalism views through the lens of the OT. I think...."

I would agree, Susan.

Vern Poythress points out that the way to interpret OT scripture is shown us in the book of Hebrews. Covenant and New Covenant Theology follow that example given us there...

BUT

Where in the Bible do we see an example of the Classic Dispensational hermeneutic?

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13 Comments:

Blogger mark pierson said...

Another thing that Susan said in that same comment really hits the nail on the head...
" I see "the" message of the OT pointing to Christ.
Also, in my view, OT prophecy must be viewed through the lens of the NT and not vice-versa."

A hearty AMEN!, Susan

May 26, 2007 9:40 PM

 
Blogger Susan said...

Back atcha, Mark.
And a blessed Lord's Day to you and yours.

May 26, 2007 11:15 PM

 
Blogger Rose~ said...

3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.

9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me." (Matthew 27)


We can see there that "potter's field" in the OT is said to have meant "potter's field" by a NT author. Also "thirty silver coins" is said to have meant "thirty silver coins."

This is the same basic approach to scripture that would cause a theologian to see a basic dispensational scheme. One big difference is that Matthew had the privilege of having seen the literal fulfillment of that OT prophecy, while we are going to have to wait a while to see the future yet-unfulfilled prophecies literally fulfilled.

:~)

Hi Mark. :~)

May 27, 2007 12:34 AM

 
Blogger Susan said...

Jesus said, "I am the door.
-John 10:9
Is Christ an "actual" door?
No.
Interestingly, the same author wrote one verse (one) in Revelation about a "millenium."
He also wrote that Jesus was (and is) the Word.
Is Jesus an "actual" "word"?
No.
I don't see how your example, Rose, illustrates an entire theological system just because thirty coins means thirty coins and a potter's field is a potter's field.
Scripture isn't solely either "literal" or "symbolic."
The Spiritual - which the author John well illustrates here - is "literal," real and its own realm.
Jesus rose literally - physically - and today lives and reigns over the very real Spiritual realm.
Those who are "born again" are not "physically" born again, but spiritually. It is real and it is literal.

May 27, 2007 8:01 AM

 
Blogger Susan said...

Jesus is the "lamb" of God.
Literal?
Yes - in the spiritual sense.
So much of NT is spiritual.
And what is the whole of Scripture if not a Spiritual document - told in different literary genres?

May 27, 2007 8:20 AM

 
Blogger Susan said...

Last thought - on a personal note:
When Reformed theology came to my awareness, the "sovereignty" of God became complete and full. This is a God whom I fear (as Scripture says to do) - He who has the power and authority to cast me into hell - He who fully regenerated me without my own taking part in being "born again" (as no one takes part or causes their physical birth either).

Likewise, when amillenialism came to my knowledge, Christ's ascension and the counsel of other NT Scripture (such as the verses in Colossians I cited in the post above this one) make sense. If we live daily as though Christ is indeed on His throne - reigning and not just interceding based on our prayers alone - we can walk through this world knowing - as Abraham did - that it is but dust and we are but sojourners - on our way to a much more glorious heavenly city. We can live seeking heavenly things - setting our minds (prayers, praise, etc) on things above, not on the earth.

May 27, 2007 8:25 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Rev. 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth
Does that mean trillions of stars, each one vastly larger than earth, are going to fall on the earth?

May 27, 2007 8:30 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Hi Rose! Thanks for your input.

I guess what I am after is a model for the Dispensational System. Such a model for the Reformed System is found while looking at the Book of Hebrews - Type and fulfillment, and all pointing to Christ. In fact, one gets the sense that Christ is the end-all and be-all of Bible Prophecy, and, IMHO, there is no sharing center stage with the Nation of Israel.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things with me, Rose! I count you as a dear friend.

May 27, 2007 9:44 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Susan, what you say here is PERFECT, IMHO....
"Scripture isn't solely either "literal" or "symbolic."
The Spiritual - which the author John well illustrates here - is "literal," real and its own realm.
Jesus rose literally - physically - and today lives and reigns over the very real Spiritual realm.
Those who are "born again" are not "physically" born again, but spiritually. It is real and it is literal."

May 27, 2007 9:50 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Wayne, I see where you are coming from here...
"Does that mean trillions of stars, each one vastly larger than earth, are going to fall on the earth?"

I do believe the Classic Dispensationalism hermeneutic opens a can of worms, as you are illustrating here.

May 27, 2007 9:55 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Another inconsistency is that in some Classic Dispensationalism camps the word "dead" as we see it in Ephesians 2:1, well, the word "metaphor" can't be typed fast enough by those who otherwise boast of holding to a literal grammatical interpretation.

May 27, 2007 2:49 PM

 
Blogger Susan said...

Our pastor today expounded on 1 Cor 15:20-28.
During his talk, he noted that he doesn't see anywhere in Scripture that Christ will come again twice - once at the beginning of a 7-yr tribulation and again at the beginning of an earthly 'millenium.'
He noted that death - the final enemy - will be no more when Christ comes again, so that there cannot be a kingdom on earth after Christ comes, because the dispensational system teaches that men will have an opportunity to be saved during the 7-yr period - as well as being born and dying, but this cannot be, since death will be vanquished when Christ returns, according to Scripture at least.
Interesting....
There was a lot more ground he covered during today's sermon, but I'll leave it for another post, after Jazzy's upcoming series.

May 27, 2007 4:55 PM

 
Blogger Rose~ said...

Hey Mrk,
Your sidebar is really "fluid" these days. ;~)
You bring up word "dead" as we see it in Ephesians 2:1. I think you and I both agree that is a spiritual reference and not a literal or physical "dead", right? We agree on that. :~)

Mark,
you asked for an example of the Classic Dispensational hermeneutic. I was providing you with just one of how a prophecy was given and it turned out to have meant exactly what it "plainly and normally" said. This is really how I see the dispensational hermenuetic. I am not as smart as Jonathan and Bobby, just a simple mind. I am surprised at all the comments back to me, wow! :~)
Re: Jesus being a door and the other examples of figurative language: I have never argued that there is no figurative language. Recognizing figurative language is not the same as seeing a normal statement as "spiritual." Have you ever considered this rule:
When the plain sense makes normal sense, seek no other sense.
??
I find that very sensible.

Anyways, I don't want to get into a full-blown argument about it. Who has the time? God bless you here at bluecollar blog.

May 28, 2007 9:02 AM

 

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