How Do You Know You Are Saved?
Here's a re post of a video that created quite a controversy on my old blog. I find that when sanctification and obedience become optional in circles of neo-evangelicalism, it is nothing less than the display of spiritual decadence that we are currently in...is it a wonder that the Lord refuses to send revival the American "church", seeing that she will not repent of her harlotry?
Labels: antinomianism, born again, conviction, Sanctification
posted by Scribe at 6:57 PM
33 Comments:
This comment has been removed by the author.
October 06, 2007 8:39 PM
Scribes,
Thank you for sharing that message. I dare to say there are many folks out there that think they are Christians and are not, sadly. They are deceived and on the wrong path. The sin in our lives should bring us to our knees. It should make us repent because of it. If it is not your enemy, you should question your walk. I don't know about everyone else but when I have sinned and I have not gone before the Lord for forgiveness, I have a sense of distance from Him. It is not His distance but my own because that sin is on my heart and onlt when I go to Him in repenance, do I feel at peace.
Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
Job 11:14 If iniquity [be] in thine hand, put it far away, and let not wickedness dwell in thy tabernacles
Rom 12:9 [Let] love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Psa 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
October 06, 2007 9:48 PM
I was under the impression after reading much of what you dialoged with Antonio that you take the position Spurgeon did in the Warrant of Faith
Forgive me but I am a bit remiss on any dialogue that took place between Antonio and I that ran along these lines. I could be wrong...
Jesus said to "Let not your hearts be troubled and to believe in God and to believe also in Him."
Contextually, Christ was speaking to Peter and the rest of His disciples at the last supper before the Lord's passion, and ultimate death and resurrection. I believe that it would be rather anachronistic of the Lord to superfluously reiterate some mental assent of belief in Him, as such was already established in Christ. I believe Christ was encouraging them to believe in Him in spite of the certain tragedies that would befall them (Judas' defection, Peter's betrayal,etc.) He promises them that inspite His inevitable departure, that He would not leave them comfortless,thus sending the Holy Ghost to be more to them than Christ could be confined to an earthly body, as the Spirit would be in them alway.
It is most unfortunate that there is the Corinthians and Solomon and Lot that bear witness of believers that crashed and burned and yet will be saved yet so as by fire
The Corinthians ultimately repented of their sins in 2 Cor. 7, Solomon may have repented in Eccles. 12:13, though one could not conclusively say(thus speculatory at this juncture) and yes Lot was given honorable mention in Hebrews 11...my issue is not with backslidden Christians ,I was one for four years thinking I lost my salvation. My issue is with the contemporary notion of easy believism that may give assurance to some who is hell-bound.
Just an F.Y.I., I do not believe that a true Christian can fall from grace, as salvation does not begin with us neither does it end with us.
Brian, thank you for your insight and grace my brother...
In Christ,
Sam
October 06, 2007 9:54 PM
Oh thats right Scribe. Sorry I never know who is posting here. Forgive me. I for some reason thought it was Mark.
Amen on the sin part, but either we are born again or we are not born again. Sin should bother all of us. We dont want to turn Jesus into a phantom. True that our sinful flesh is still with us, but if we dont apprehend the fact that we are a new creation and rest in that truth then we should be concerned deeply. Roman Catholics have a deep awareness of their sin, but that does not help them. Either we have faith or we dont.
October 06, 2007 9:59 PM
Thank you for sharing that message. I dare to say there are many folks out there that think they are Christians and are not, sadly.
I am curious as to how the Lord will handle the men and women who have given false assurances of salvation to people devoid of repentence. How great an evil is it to assure one of a salvation not bequeth to him only to have that person die and open their eyes in hell! I can think of no greater evil than this!
October 06, 2007 9:59 PM
And it is equally evil to question the child of God who does have faith and cause him to stumble. You walk a fine line here. you really do brother. That is why context is imperitive. It is good to be passionate and zealous but context should always be put to the test. I'm still growing boo:-) I am going to delete that first coment since I missunderstood who posted.
Love in Christ,
Brian
October 06, 2007 10:04 PM
Amen on the sin part, but either we are born again or we are not born again. Sin should bother all of us. We dont want to turn Jesus into a phantom. True that our sinful flesh is still with us, but if we dont apprehend the fact that we are a new creation and rest in that truth then we should be concerned deeply. Roman Catholics have a deep awareness of their sin, but that does not help them. Either we have faith or we dont.
I agree Brian...being aware of sin and doing nothing to reconcile yourself to God aids no man. Does the knowledge of our innate sin cause us to repent, this is the bigger question? Repentence is the lifestyle of a true saint of God, not just a one-time deal.
October 06, 2007 10:07 PM
>Repentence is the lifestyle of a true saint of God, not just a one-time deal.<
Amen. The Holy Spirit will always be wrestless if we allow sin into our life. As I look back since the time I accepted Christ at the age of six if ever I allowed sin into my life I was either rebuked, severly chasten or had horrible tremblings in my bed at night, but I find my peace and rest in the fact that he is faithful to His promise and the transaction at the cross was permanent and it is well with my soul because of that fact and not how I feel day to day.
October 06, 2007 10:12 PM
And it is equally evil to question the child of God who does have faith and cause him to stumble. You walk a fine line here. you really do brother. That is why context is imperitive. It is good to be passionate and zealous but context should always be put to the test. I'm still growing boo:-) I am going to delete that first coment since I missunderstood who posted.
I also am acclimated with the innate evil of having a true child of God question his salvation..in fact it was this very belief that caused me to backslide.
We do not give meat to babes in Christ but to them that are of full age (Heb. 5:14). But every man must be fully persuaded in his own mine, so let a man examine HIMSELF to see if he is in the faith, lest they be reprobates.
I, too am learning my brother...
In the Beloved,
Scribe
October 06, 2007 10:14 PM
Amen. The Holy Spirit will always be wrestless if we allow sin into our life.
Amen, amen, amen! And he will cause us a holy discomfort if we attempt to stay therein, what saith David?:
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin [is] ever before me. Psalm 51:3
Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice. Psalm 51:8
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.
Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Psalm 51:12,13
I find this convo spiritually edifying..may the Lord's goodness rest on thee.
In Chist,
Scribe
October 06, 2007 10:23 PM
Scribe,
Thanks for the good post. Some just do not want to accept that there are false professors. Yet, the Bible points it out over and over and Piper gets critized for pointing out this Biblical teaching.
October 07, 2007 8:32 AM
Some just do not want to accept that there are false professors.
I agree, Jazzy...John 6:24-74 is a classic example of Christ sifting out false disciples. The truth is the majority of people are going to hell (Matthew 7:12-14), and a lot of these people are entrenched within religious circles(Matt.7:22), men seek to broaden the sawdust trail when Christ said the way was narrow. Even Christ expected obedience from His disciples (albeit not perfect):
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Some may argue that these verses are per-calvery and have no bearing on us now...hmm? How about 1 John chapter 3?
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
And these a re just a "few" verses out of I John...If your faith hasn't/isn't changing you, is hasn't saved you, period.
October 07, 2007 9:20 AM
Scribe,
I think this video is excellent.
These words of Jesus come to mind: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven.... " (Matt 7:21a)
We ought all examine our walk and talk daily - moment by moment.
October 07, 2007 9:21 AM
Correction: it hasn't saved you..
Thanks Susan...
October 07, 2007 10:08 AM
Yes an edifying talk brother. Truly I accept that there are false professors but my point is that making a profession out of tasing the false professors or second guessing whether one is a true believer or not is not the basis of our calling. The gospel is God's offer and we are to preach the word and if those who are deceiving themselves continue then there is nothing you nor I can do about it.
The context of 2 Corinthians 13:5 is constantly ripped out of context in order to acheive this end. Paul is actually having to defend his apostleship as the Corinthians whom earlier in both epistles warned but made clear to them that he considered them dearly loved children in spite of their false examinations.
In essence Paul was clearly laying out the evidence for the Corinthians charge against him where they were saying that he was examined by them and found wanting and that the false teachers they were receiving were in truth the false ones and only wanted to to puff themselves up and ridicule Paul. he was saying to them that if you want to put the microscope in me then turn it on yourselves and examine yourselves with the same intensity that you examine me. Thats the whole catch 22 of that passage. You fall under its judgment if you try to make its application on another and this can lead to an unforgiving spirit and frustration when we see others not behaving like we think they should. WE can become a moralist like David telling Nathan to put to death the man who stole the ewe lamb and in effect we lose sight of our own selves and we fall into the performance trap and unconsciously commit the very evil we dont wish to commit.
We have no warrent given by God to use this passage even in this New Evangelical age. It is a temptation to use it wrongly but we have no warrant to do so and I realize down through history men of God have, but that does not make it right.
Consider.
Love in Christ,
Brian
October 07, 2007 3:00 PM
I once read a quote that went something like this, "I question the man that cannot say..I AM SAVED, because if he cannot he is working off of a selfish motivation to serve God."
If a person is calling me to examine myself daily to see if I am saved then he is calling me away from the finished work of the cross and you commit as much an evil as some of the GES do in saying that we dont need to trust in the work of the cross in order to be saved.
How bizarre it is that I must bring up a quote that Antonio once used and note that he does not believe that you must even know about the cross in order to be saved but you guys seem to be embracing the same error from a differant angle. The quote?
"How can you sacrifice for God if you dont know if he has sacrificed for you."
October 07, 2007 3:17 PM
"If a person is calling me to examine myself daily to see if I am saved "
I would never tell a believer to do this.
I don't do it.
Yet when a person comes to join the church, and I ask him to give his testimony, many times the answer will be: "Well I've always been a Christian", or "I said a sinners prayer and accepted jesus into my heart when I was 16, but then I went out into the world, and now that I'm 37 I want to have a local church". And these two statements are similiar of many others.
It's these kind of testimonies where I ask that person to exaime themselves.
And quite a few times these same people get upset, and leave.
I think Paul is saying to the corinthians, hey you want to judge me then you ought to judge yourselves. Exaime your hearts, and life, and see if you haven't believed in vain.
Paul says, he had proven himself over and over with the way he lived for the lord, and it was a little thing that these people would judge him.
He knew who his Lord was, and knew he was fighting the good fight of faith, but it wasn't him, but the grace of God in him.
There will always be those who believe in vain. 1 Cor. 15:2
We need to challenge them.
And for the genuine believer, we can have great assurance of our salvation, becuase of God's truth, and because of the witness of the Spirit, that testifies that we are children of God. And children of God walk in love and righteousness. 1 John
October 07, 2007 3:50 PM
I agree with your concern Donsand and we should all have it, but we still need to be careful. What we are doing with 2 Corinthians 13:5 though is not the intention of Paul for a broadbrush with all believers today.
Where 2 Corinthians 13:5 is being used has taken over what God has given us in 1 John. Also the understanding and background of 1 John should also be understood that those saints were being troubled about their salvation.
We still have litmus test in there that weed out false professors and actually serve to strenghten and assure the believer. I know some of the free gracers are going to disagree with me on that, but 1 John should be the text used and it should flow and convict naturally. I just have a conviction that all of this tare policing is actually serving to strengthen the matter in many cases and some of the flock are being fleeced in the process. If someone reads 1 John and naturally starts falling under conviction and doubt then that is the Holy Spirit, but if we take and use this book as a battering ram to examine everyone then we grieve the Holy Sprit I believe. So if someone came for church membership and I was their pastor I would refer to that book if they said they were living in the world without any sway and conviction and seemed to be just looking for a group to join I would call them to study 1 John.
October 07, 2007 5:08 PM
Someone said to me today (in essence, but this is pretty close to exact wording):
"I believe in Jesus and that He's my Savior and all that, but I don't give my life to Him. I mean, I'm too selfish. I have other interests. I'm sure a pastor would be frustrated with a church full of people like me."
What do you say to that?
Except to pray.
October 07, 2007 7:16 PM
Let me quote Puritan divine, Thomas Watson (one of my favs)
True faith is prolific. It brings forth fruit; it has
Rachel's beauty--and Leah's fruitfulness. Faith is
full of good works. It believes as if it did not work
--and it works as if it did not believe. Faith is the
spouse-like grace which marries Christ; and good
works are the children which it bears!
October 07, 2007 8:54 PM
1 John 5:6-13
"This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
October 07, 2007 9:03 PM
Good discussion. The Bible in many places describes a false faith. This is a claimed faith that someone says they have and Susan cited an example of such a claimed faith. The Bible says in James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?. James is speaking about someone who claims to have faith but is in truth just a professed faith.
Let’s take a case like Susan cited. Is it a good thing to affirm an erroneous expectation of salvation with someone headed for hell or would it be better to gently point them to what Scripture teaches about salvation? In short should passages such as James 2:14 above and Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work. be brought to their attention?
Does not the following passage give us some guidance: Ezekiel 33:7-9 “So you, son of man, I have made a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 8 If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
October 07, 2007 10:01 PM
Jazzy,
You pull stuff out of context...again, but that is a good passage to bring the lost into conviction of their sin.
Susans coment here:
>These words of Jesus come to mind: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven.... " (Matt 7:21a)
We ought all examine our walk and talk daily - moment by moment.<
Is what concerns me. This is unhealthy introspection and this is what messages like this will lead to.
In the video he talked about the stars obeying and the planets aligning at his will, but those are objects with no life or soul within them.
When he asks if anyone has a problem with that. Then I would add to the list
Peter at times in his life. Especially when asked to cast his net back into the sea and he argues with Christ...of course we know he soon obeys, but then his denial.
David who for a year lived in a constant "NO" state.
Samson who never seemed to ever yield the way God would have him yeild but was like a walking firebrand obeying sometimes, yet a man in the hall of faith.
Again the Corinthian Church and some of the Churches in Revelation called to repentance.
All I am saying is that you guys are not totally discerning listeners, but the music and the set up is appealing and stirring. Still we must be consistent.
My strongest point of agreement though is the sensitivity to sin. A believer will not be comfortable with sin and also the fact that the believer will tremble at his word and having the new creation within him will desire to respond.
Again I am not comfortable with this entitlement American Church either and do believe that many are lost with erroneous hopes based on some kind of experience from their past converging with some prayer that did not envolve entrustment.
If some of you secretly are struggling with trusting in Christ alone deep down in your hearts and are still trying to sin less and perform more to get Gods favor then I call you to repentance and to trust in Him alone. Be sure you are trusting in Him alone and not some emotional responses the converge with cool music.
October 08, 2007 6:57 PM
Brian,
Glad to hear from you. I hope things are well with you and your family.
I always strive very hard to be as brief as possible. I rarely quote anything other than the Bible and myself. If I have quoted a Bible verse out of context, then I invite you to put it in context with your interpretation.
I certainly believe the verses I quoted are valid and apply to the point I was making.
Good to hear from you brother.
October 08, 2007 10:48 PM
Maybe I have a wrong understanding of these particular verses in their context (examine yourselves), but what I meant was that we are to be vigilant in our obedience and submission to the Lord. A lot of the verses that Cristina cited above support what I meant - we should be careful, not casual, daily. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding or miscommunication here, bhedr.
October 09, 2007 11:33 AM
Hello all,
2 Cor. 13 is a passage I've been enjoying much lately when I try and wake up would-be Christians out of their ignorance. In it I was intrigued by Paul informing the Corinthians that there is one sure way of knowing that they are in the faith which is to test themselves for the Spirit. "Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?"(the 'reprobate' word in some versions may be a little too narrow). That the power from God has been directed towards them, and that Christ is now living mightily in them...if their faith exists. And so much so, that they can simply examine themselves and surely see whether it's true or not.
I get that as his main point in that passage. That Christ speaks authoritatively in him and in fact is mightily in them too as a living presence which should even be discernable upon spiritual self-examination.
He seems to be reaffirming to them the sheer presence of the living God in them towards their complete repentence, a repentence without regret, and the joy and thanksgiving(ch.11) that follows. All by examining themselves, not each other but themselves, for evidence of the Spirit that their faith would have left in them.
Just linked over from Brian's and decided to share my own thoughts on this useful passage.
Todd
October 09, 2007 1:55 PM
Todd, thanks for the visit. My thinking on 2 Cor. 13:5 is similar to yours.
October 10, 2007 10:36 AM
You bet Mark and thank you.
October 10, 2007 9:33 PM
Hey guys and gals!
I agree on the submission part. I like Todds careful examination of the text...what do you think?
Paul ends his epistle telling them his purpose is to build up and not tear down. It is still interesting that Paul even after the Corinthians repent over some other things are still in need of more repentance, but like Todd points out...its a posistive exhortation for the brethren and he does finish by calling them brethren with more grace and peace blessings so...
grace and peace to you Susan, Jaz, Mark and Scribe. Father in law is real bad off right now so I may not be around to much. To make it short he is being cared for deeply by my exhausted wife and the home is like grand central right now. Covet your prayers.
Brian
October 10, 2007 11:08 PM
bluecollar,
It's been awhile since we talked. Hope you are doing well? Blessing on you and your family. May God bless you.
October 10, 2007 11:08 PM
Brian,
Just read your note about the father in law. I will be praying for you and your wife and family that God would be with you. Praying now after the post and getting off the computer.
October 10, 2007 11:10 PM
Scribe, good video; it reminds me a bit of the 9/11 conspiracy ones I have seen. :)
Brian, nice to hear your thoughts again in the blogosphere. You have made some very good points in your comments. I think God is doing a great work of balancing you in the Word regarding these issues.
To all:
Perhaps this issue of finding false professors would not be so large if the church as a whole practiced the Biblical mandate of Church discipline. Is it not the slackness of dealing with those in the church that are playing in sin that has caused this problem to be exacerbated? Are we not to confront sinning believers regarding their sin, and if they fail to repent consider them as heathen?
Paul's admonition regarding those who call themselves brother and yet act like the unregenerate was very strong and decisive. Perhaps a little tough love will go a long way in purging out the leaven currently polluting the body.
October 11, 2007 10:49 AM
Hey Jim,
Some good observations, but I think in the long run we have forgotten that Jesus warned that in the last days many would become offended and because of lawlessness the love of many would wax cold.
I think in the blogisphere as well as in the Church the body is isolating itself into pockets of resistence against pet peeves where they have been offended in the past and so they start harping on one area and it further pushes one another away from each other into groups that warn one another of each other and so they begin to walk into self imposed heresy. I heard once that heresy is extreme truth. Then when we see something in our group that we like we embrace it regardless of whether we are being diligent to observe the scriptures and take into account the whole counsel of God and then the world further walks from us as our hearts grow cold to one another because we begin to defile the ultimate command Jesus gave his disciples to love one another and by this all men will know that we are his disciples, but now the love has become hypocritical because we still want to be factious about our angle and are hardhearted and unwilling to help one another grow in truth and grace.
October 13, 2007 8:03 PM
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