Question For Free Gracers
See the discusion here http://free-grace.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-youre-born-again-but-will-you-walk_19.html
Let us say there was a person who, since the very moment he came to believe Jesus' promises for eternal life, lived a life in total obedience to The Father. His meat was to do his Father's will, and he was always about his Father's business. This was so for many years.
One day though he fell into temptation and lay with a woman not his wife, and died during this adulteress affair.
1) would this disqualify him from being considered an overcomer?
2) Wouldn't that mean that one cannot know for sure that they are an overcomer until they are on their deathbed, just minutes away from death?
Labels: FGT, Overcomers
posted by mark pierson at 11:34 AM
45 Comments:
I shall be at work all day today and tomorrow meaning I will only be able to spend a little time here.
January 12, 2008 12:21 PM
In the FGT scheme of overcomers, could it not be said that you are only as good as your last sin before you die?
January 12, 2008 1:47 PM
Mark,
I skimmed over some of those comments. I am not sure what was being debated in this overcomer business. I do not know what the free gracers are asserting. I do believe that Calvinism is the true free grace alone system whereas the free gracers hold to salvation by free grace plus human decision system.
I think the Bible makes it abundantly clear that everyone who has been born again by God’s grace will also overcome the world by God’s grace and the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT. ”1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” Do the free gracers consider overcoming the world as some kind of works for rewards view that also depends on human power rather than grace? It seems to me that their works for rewards view is all about human merit and effort rather than God’s mercy and grace.
January 12, 2008 9:54 PM
Before I answer the question, could you tell me whether such a person has perservered in your view?
Is such an one among the elect?
January 13, 2008 12:32 PM
No Matthew, you must answer first. This is gamesmenship on your part. The question was for *YOUR* system to deal with.
I'll be at work the rest of the day. Hope to see y'all tomorrow.
January 13, 2008 1:49 PM
In case you haven't noticed, Matthew, this is the type of question your side has been lobbing at my side for quite some time now. You dance the dance and now it is time for YOUR side to pay the piper.
January 13, 2008 2:03 PM
First, I think we are assuming that he did not repent and confess.
Had he confessed before his death, he would be cleansed from this sin and be restored to a right relationship with the Father (1 John 1:9).
In that case he would be an overcomer.
I suspect that had he confessed, his death might actually have been averted.
The coincidence of immorality followed by death suggests that this is God's discipline.
If a sinner is converted, he may be saved from death (James 5:20).
If he did not repent, then he would not be an overcomer.
He would not inherit the kingdom.
However, it may be that he would receive some rewards for his faithful service. Perhaps I am wrong about that. If a FGer can show me some Scriptures to indicate this would not happen, then I am ready for correction.
"Wouldn't that mean that one cannot know for sure that they are an overcomer until they are on their deathbed, just minutes away from death?"
We can have assurance that we have eternal life and will never be separated from the love of Christ, but we cannot have assurance that we will overccome. Even the apostle Paul was conscious of the possibility that he could fall.
However, we can be sure that if we are in Christ, we have the power to overcome and live a victorious life by faith.
We will not be tempted beyond what we can bear.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
January 13, 2008 4:13 PM
Antonio's question on this post was, "So you're born again... But will you walk with Jesus in white? Part 3"
But your answer to his question, then, would be, " but we cannot have assurance that we will overccome. Even the apostle Paul was conscious of the possibility that he could fall."
My answer to his question is that ALL Christians are overcomers by being in Christ. He is the propitiation for ALL their sins, 1 John 2:1-2.
January 14, 2008 7:19 AM
Matthew,
I see no mention of this overcoming Christians vs. non-overcoming Christians distinction in Romans 8. It seems if your view were true, then Paul would have mentioned it somewhere in chapter 8 or somewhere in Romans with more than a passing comment. I think he would have explained it thoroughly and he certainly would have written Chapter 8 differently.
No, what Paul wrote in chapter 8 reconciles with what Mark said in his comment and what John wrote.
January 14, 2008 10:02 AM
In Antonio’s post he cites Romans 8:16-17 as a passage that makes a distinction between heirs and co-heirs with Christ. Not all heirs are co-heirs with Christ he says…….
Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (17) and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
However, a few verses later in v. 29-30 Paul makes it clear that all (100%) of those justified will be glorified. When Romans 8 is considered in context it is clear that Paul is making a distinction in this chapter, but the distinction is between the saved children of God and the unsaved children of Satan and not two classes of Christians. Paul over and over gives the characteristics of each group in Romans 8. If Paul was making a distinction between heirs and co-heirs of Christ in v. 17, then it is inconceivable that he would not have expanded on that thought. When you then consider how chapter 8 closes in v. 31-39, logic compels one to reject the view that Romans 8 even hints at two classes of saved Christians.
January 14, 2008 12:26 PM
"Perhaps I am wrong about that."
Perhpas.
"Even the apostle Paul was conscious of the possibility that he could fall."
He was also confident that God would be faithful to what Paul had committed to Him.
God is a good Father. He doesn't leave us to ourselves, but He disciplines us, so that we have fruit of holiness, and Paul understood this. Surely he was never so presumptuous to think he was beyond falling into sin, God forbid any of us would think that. But God promises that we are more than conquerors, and we shall conqeror.
And this is By grace, that we are what we are.
January 14, 2008 12:32 PM
Well, according to one account I have heard, Jesus died to save us all. So if you believe that, the question is irrelevant.
But there are some who say that god is omniscient, and knows everything, including what will happen since he is alleged to have created the earth on Day 1. Accordingly he has already decided if this adulterer will go to heaven or not, there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. God ordained that the man should commit this act, as well as ordaining that many of the world's human population would be born into a culture that could never learn of him. He has doomed them to hell from Day 1 in his omniscience. And you call THAT an almighty, everlasting heavenly father?
January 14, 2008 1:23 PM
Maalie (Jim),
You have made some interesting and inaccurate comments. Since you are a bit off subject with some of them, you may want to check this post out at my blog and answer the question I pose there: Question
January 14, 2008 4:13 PM
Maalie,
We all are deserving of hell but by "His Grace" some will not enter it.
Samuel 2:6-10 6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. 7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up. 8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, And He has set the world upon them. 9 He will guard the feet of His saints, But the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail. 10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken in pieces; From heaven He will thunder against them. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth. "He will give strength to His king, And exalt the horn of His anointed."
Job 14:1-5 "Man who is born of woman Is of few days and full of trouble. (2) He comes forth like a flower and fades away; He flees like a shadow and does not continue. (3) And do You open Your eyes on such a one, And bring me to judgment with Yourself? (4) Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one! (5) Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.
Psalms 33:8-15 Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. (9) For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. (10) The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. (11) The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations. (12) Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance. (13) The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. (14) From the place of His dwelling He looks On all the inhabitants of the earth; (15) He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.
Psalms 135:5-6 5 For I know that the LORD is great, And our Lord is above all gods. 6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.
Isaiah 46:9-11 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
Isaiah 48:3 "I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
Isaiah 48:5 Even from the beginning I have declared it to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you, Lest you should say, `My idol has done them, And my carved image and my molded image Have commanded them.'
Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Matthew 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
And we rest in this verse......
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Cristina
January 15, 2008 12:14 PM
I'm with Maalie on this one. Just what are you all talking about: overcomers, free gracers? They are just words and they mean absolutely nothing. The one thing we can grab hold of and keep is faith, hope and love. Nothing else. Afterall Paul says so.
Lorenzo.
January 15, 2008 12:15 PM
I'm sorry you didn't have the courage to retain my last comment. To close to the bone, was it?
January 15, 2008 1:15 PM
"I'm afraid it's absolutely pointless to spout this stuff at me. Stuff from an outdated book of dubious provenance, riddled with contradictions, numerous proven translation errors, garbled, unintelligible and burdened with absolute fallacies."
Jim, if that is your view of the Bible then you are lost, doomed to destruction, to burn in the eternal Lake of Fire. Please do not comment here any more since Truth, that is the Bible, obviously means nothing to you.
We believe that God the Son came to pay for the sins of lost men, was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead, showing all who look to Him that they are justified, declared righteous by God the Father, their sins having been paid for by His shed blood. One day He will appear to take those who believe in Him home to be with Him forever. Believe this and you shall have eternal life.
January 15, 2008 1:23 PM
> Please do not comment here any more since Truth, that is the Bible, obviously means nothing to you.
But nobody seems to be answering my questions. If the bible is truth, and the word of god, why does he make so many blatant contradictions? It simply can't all be true, some bits are mutually exclusive.
How are we to know which bits are true, if anything? THAT, as an evidence-seeking scientist, is my paradox.
Your description of hell is very colourful. At what age would you begin to tell children that stuff?
January 15, 2008 1:33 PM
I think we should all pray for Maalie.
Lorenzo.
January 15, 2008 1:35 PM
Blue, we have been doing the rounds over at Susan aka Halfmom's blog for a couple of days now, I have been defending the faith, and told those guys to go to Triablogue and strut their stuff...check it out over at Halfmom and see, I think you will like it...
January 15, 2008 1:43 PM
"Strut their stuff"? That's not very nice.
Lorenzo.
January 15, 2008 1:53 PM
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2593437807623407838&postID=5656669878583888008
January 15, 2008 2:04 PM
> and told those guys to go to Triablogue and strut their stuff..
LOL! Does that mean "enter into discussion" or "present our evidence"? We speak English over here, you know ;-)
January 15, 2008 2:41 PM
Lorenzo,
Thanks for your input. I believe I would add truth to your list. After all Jesus came full of grace and truth.
January 15, 2008 6:19 PM
I do believe that Calvinism is the true free grace alone system whereas the free gracers hold to salvation by free grace plus human decision system.
Jazzy, that is a very apt description. Well done.
The Scripture you quoted (1 John 5:4) likewise says it all.
How ironic that 'free gracers' accuse Calvinists of a works-based system when the works-for-rewards seems to smack more of human merit (instead of the works that God Himself prepared in advance for us to do - Ephesians 2:10).
January 15, 2008 11:13 PM
Wayne, actually many Free Gracers believe in unconditional election, including Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin.
This is not about sovereignty v free-will at all.
God Bless
Matthew
January 16, 2008 3:42 AM
Matthew,
What do you think of Antonio's view that Romans 8:16-17 is distinguishing between heirs and co-heirs? How can his position be reconciled with all of Romans 8?
January 16, 2008 9:22 AM
Matthew,
Great answers.
You were right to say that this man, if he didn't repent, would not be an overcomer, he would not inherit.
You were also correct to note that the man who lived that life, only to fail in the end (being unrepentant), would have stored up many treasures in the heavens that would be reserved for him there, that would not be taken away.
In the doctrine of rewards, there are two considerations:
1) Rewards based upon specific acts, stored in heaven.
2) Co-glorification with Christ based upon faithfulness and endurance until the end.
Wayne,
All Christians will be glorified. This is to be a child of God, heir of God. Yet not all will be co-glorified with Christ.
You see, glorification in a new resurrection body is dependent upon being a child of God. How does one become a child of God? Jn 1:12 tells us it is by faith in Christ. Co-glorification with Jesus (sharing in the glory that Jesus one, in reigning with Him) has a further condition: suffering with Him.
Romans 8:17 is clear that there are two different heirships based upon TWO DIFFERENT CONDITIONS:
1) Heir of God, conditioned upon being a child of God through faith in Jesus
2) co-heir with Christ, (given:conditioned on being a child of God through faith in Jesus) and co-suffering with Christ.
Antonio
January 16, 2008 12:00 PM
I'm a little perplexed, I guess. Personally, I hold firmly to the Doctrines of Grace, as I believe they're taught throughout all of inspired scripture; so, I believe that one who has been granted saving faith will persevere. I think there's a great misunderstanding and thus, misuse, of the word persevere though - by "both" camps.
There's too much to say, I suppose, to continue on. Of all the deep things of God to search after in His word, the question you posed (and I understand well that it's a question typically posed by those who hold a different theology), seems quite peripheral.
January 16, 2008 12:55 PM
Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (17) and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Antonio,
There is simply no way to reconcile your interpretation with the rest of Romans 8 or the rest of Scripture. The following is from a sermon by Ligon Duncan of First Presbyterian in Jackson, MS:
”And then finally in verses 16 and 17, Paul makes it clear that the Spirit witnesses, He Himself witnesses along with our spirit, that we are truly children of God, and thus heirs of God. Christians are assured of their sonship and their inheritance by the witness of the Spirit. And, interestingly, Paul says, look at the end of verse 17, in their perseverance and suffering. In other words, Paul is saying that this assurance that God gives you is not merely subjective or objective, it’s both. Your spirit bears witness, but the Holy Spirit also bears witness. But furthermore, he says that the Holy Spirit’s bearing witness that we are sons of God does not mean that we’re not going to suffer. In fact, precisely because He bears witness that we are true sons of God, we may expect to suffer in this life. One of the old Puritans said, "God has one Son without sin, but none without suffering."
So what is Paul’s point in this passage? Paul’s point is that you have been so united to the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit of adoption, that you are one with Him in His sufferings, and you will be one with Him in His glory. And when you doubt that you will be one with Him in His glory, you remember that you are one with Him in His sufferings. And it is just as certain that you will be one with Him in His glory, as it is that you are going through trials now. That’s what Paul is saying. Every trial that you go through in life is a witness of the Spirit that you are going to share in the glory of the inheritance of the Son of God. And so the apostle says, grow in grace because you are under obligation, because sins kills, because you’re sons of God, because the Holy Spirit of adoption is at work in you, and because the Holy Spirit is in you bearing witness that you are sons of God. Now live, Paul says, in that light.”
January 16, 2008 7:14 PM
Very good Jazzy. And Jesus is not ashamed to call us brothers.
And He sovereignly decides who will be a martyr, and who may suffer less, and how much one will suffer. Job surely suffered, and yet Abraham had less trials, and was very blessed with material possessions.
Jesus told Peter, "you're going to die for Me."
Peter said, "What about John?"
Jesus said, "What's that to you, even if I let him live until I come back, you go serve Me."
It's not about us anyhow. It's all about His grace, and His grace being sufficient enough.
To God be all the glory.
January 16, 2008 10:19 PM
Don,
Very good points about God's sovereignty in suffering of the saints. This theology of rewards by human effort and decision along with two classes of those who are saved by the blood of Jesus is insulting to the work of the Holy Spirit. I believe grace is more than an offer waiting for a human response. It is a sovereign action by God that brings about results in saving sinners and enabling them to willingly cooperate in sanctification. Antonio and FGT is arguing from human decision and merit being the cause, whereas we are arguing from God's sovereign grace being the cause.
Eph. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.......... Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Please note GRACE WAS GIVEN. Do we really believe that Paul would have ended Romans 8 the way he did if there are two different heirships as Antonio has stated it?
January 16, 2008 11:21 PM
I dont want to answer that.
Ask me a question about the nephilim, will you?
January 17, 2008 11:19 AM
Matthew,
Why do you not want to answer? Do you disagree with Antonio? I sense there is a great reluctance for FG people to disagree with Antonio. Is that a problem for you?
I think perhaps that subject you raise would make an interesting post rather than go into it here. Seems like I read your view somewhere else, but I don't remember your view other than I did not agree...
Imagine that!
January 17, 2008 12:27 PM
Maybe I am just bored of debating John 8 with you.
Sorry, Wayne.
January 17, 2008 2:35 PM
Jazzy:
You wrote, "Why do you not want to answer? Do you disagree with Antonio? I sense there is a great reluctance for FG people to disagree with Antonio. Is that a problem for you?"
Your thought there is widely held by folks who have watched these various debates.
May I suggest when you refer to "FG people"- meaning Hodges, Wilkin, Myers, Matthew and da Rosa, you might narrow that down to the GES wing of the FG community. The GES wing is as far left of a theologically balanced position in the FG camp as they can be.
In the FG community the GES has become the equivalent of the "hyper-Calvinist" faction found in Calvinistic circles.
LM
January 17, 2008 8:58 PM
BTW, I have noticed an increasiong pattern of "post & run" blogging by da Rosa. It is becoming more and more unlikely to expect an answer to any question or comment on his statements.
Lately, Matthew has been acting as his mouth-piece at various sites.
Have you men at Blue Collar sensed this growing reluctance by Antonio?
He may be headed for a total departure like that of Wilkin and Myers.
LM
January 17, 2008 9:03 PM
Lou,
That may be a good comparison as I believe the hyper-Calvinists and FGracers both become so obsessed with one doctrine that it leads to doctrinal tunnel vision.
January 17, 2008 10:23 PM
Matthew,
No problem and I understand as FGT is hard to reconcile with Romans 8. (I believe you meant to say Romans 8 instead of John 8)
We have been around the block a few times eh!
January 17, 2008 10:31 PM
Wayne, maybe you might want to read Renee Lopez's commentary on Romans.
January 18, 2008 10:31 AM
Matthew:
Jazzy asked, You wrote, "Why do you not want to answer? Do you disagree with Antonio? I sense there is a great reluctance for FG people to disagree with Antonio. Is that a problem for you?"
I note the same reluctance from any one in your group/camp to disagree openly with Antono; why is that?
LM
January 20, 2008 10:01 AM
Lou,
Why do you care about the FG community?
You are far from being Free Grace! Neither do you take that label.
It is very interesting that you make the enemy of your enemy your friend. That really doesn't surprise me. You are right at home with Lordship people, reserving your greatest expressions of outrage for those in the Free Grace camp.
Everyone,
welcome Lou into your fold. He has no ties or affiliations with Free Grace believers. Rather his doctrine is soft Lordship. This is not surprising. You see, he doesn't want to identify completely with either group, because he is soft Lordship. Here is his quote:
"When my book came out some men in the Free Grace camp began to claim me as part of their camp. Some Lordship advocates began to label me as a Free Grace advocate. I told both groups they are being hasty, and I do not identify with any particular group or camp."
Antonio
January 21, 2008 4:52 PM
Antonio,
Do you consider Jesus Christ your Lord?
January 21, 2008 8:55 PM
Antonio:
I do not not identify with the LS camp. I do not identify with the radical teachings of the Hodges/Wilkin/GES faction of the Free Grace community.
You wrote, “The Mormon Jesus and the Evangelical Jesus are one and the same.”
What camp does that put you in?
LM
January 21, 2008 9:59 PM
Blue Collar Gang:
Antonio seems to be interested in camps and/or affiliations.
Well, at his India Journal blog, Antonio wrote, "I beseech you, brethren, to make supplications and requests for this strategic missions endeavor to God our Father. Please pray that the Holy Spirit prepare the hearts of those whom He is directing our ministry to, through dreams, visions, and other circumstances."
Antonio: you appear to have leanings toward the Charismatic movement; don't you?
LM
January 22, 2008 11:12 AM
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