LOOKING TO PRAISE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

Monday, October 08, 2007

Lordship salvation redefined

Salvation begins at conversion and is completed at glorification. Conversion consists of faith and repentance and occurs after God’s effectual call and regeneration. Justification occurs immediately after conversion and is followed immediately by adoption. Sanctification then begins and continues for the rest of the believers’ life. Lordship, discipleship, obedience, and conformity to Christ happen during the process of sanctification. Therefore, lordship salvation is actually better defined as lordship sanctification.

While man cooperates and participates in sanctification, it is a process that is powered by God’s grace through the work of the Holy Spirit. This power enables the redeemed to willingly desire and seek after the things of God. It is never a perfect work by the Holy Spirit, but it is also never a total failure. Certainly there are some exceptions, like people dying immediately after conversion, such as the thief on the cross. However, to believe that a redeemed Christian can choose not to be conformed in any way to Christ is to insult the work, power and person of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14 makes it clear that all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. A person that does not follow is not being led and is not a son of God. Such a person is not saved. Lordship sanctification is just another way of saying that Christians are led by the Spirit of God and respond to the grace that is conforming them to the image of Christ. Lordship sanctification is powered by God.

Yet some people claim this is nothing but an attempt to be justified by works. I think this belief flows from an erroneous view that human decision apart from God’s grace secures salvation and sanctification also is accomplished by man and man alone. This view does not take into account the grace and faith that connects justification and sanctification. Grace changes a sinner’s heart, which enables him to willingly respond in faith to Jesus Christ. With his new heart, attitude, and desires a redeemed sinner is led by grace to do works of sanctification. This is lordship sanctification and it shows the same kind of Christian character that Jesus describes in the beatitudes. These deeds flow from a believers new character rather than an attempt to secure a new character.

A person who performs works of sanctification out of a motive to be made right with God and thus be justified is not saved. That would be a failed attempt at lordship justification. A person that claims to be a believer but has not been changed by the grace of regeneration is also not saved. That would be a false professor as described in the parable of the four soils.

Praise God that his grace powers justification and sanctification. He who began a good work will carry it through to completion. Grace not only saves sinners from the penalty of sin, it saves them from the power of sin. Have you experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in your life? Are you being sanctified by grace?

What do you think? Is this what Piper is referring to in the video just before this post?

40 Comments:

Blogger jazzycat said...

Justification by faith secures eternal life and it is a done deal at that point. But God's grace continues and lordship sanctification is the result.

October 08, 2007 1:51 PM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

If Lordship Salvation is a matter of sanctification and not justification, perhaps it should make no difference at all to the preaching of the Gospel?

Perhaps talk about committing one's life to Christ and being willing to 'count the cost' is actually unnecessary?

For if, as Mark, says, perserverance is inevitable (though not automatic), the person who is converted under the simpe Gospel of grace will be sure to become a disciple.

October 08, 2007 2:20 PM

 
Blogger donsands said...

I didn't know that was John Piper?

It's good preaching!

The Word of God cuts down through the bone to the marrow of the depth of the human soul.

The Word cuts the heart. The heart will either say, "Woe is me, what am I to do?", or it will hate being cut, and "stop up it's ears, and gnash it's teeth against the Word. Acts 2:37; 7:54,57

Good post Wayne. The sanctifying includes chastising as well. Our Father loves us too much not to discipline us.
If He doesn't discipline then we are not His children.

If you think about God's love for His elect from before He created the world, then it should blow us out of our socks that He would love us that much.
God loves us, and died for us. Then He seeks us, and rescues us, and He keeps us. His love is more powerful then anything in this universe.
What can seperate us from it?

October 08, 2007 3:21 PM

 
Blogger James Lush said...

I think that is Paul Thrasher preaching and not John Piper. The voice sounds familiar. But I tend to agree with what he is saying. Justification secures our pardon and sanctification enables us and the Holy Spirit to conform us to the image of Christ and that process is complex in the hands of a Holy and Righteous Father.

October 08, 2007 4:48 PM

 
Blogger James Lush said...

Further to my last comment I think it should have said this. Justification secures our pardon and sanctification enables the Holy Spirit to work in our lifes and with us to conform us to the image of Christ and that process is complex in the hands of a Holy and Righteous Father. Somehow its a Divine and Human dichotomy that is so interwoven that it takes both of us. The Holy Spirit and Us. We dont just sit back, there are spiritual disciplines required on our part that enable us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

October 08, 2007 4:52 PM

 
Blogger James Lush said...

Sorry my mistake thats Paul Washer not Thrasher, hey I was close LOL

October 08, 2007 5:11 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
You said..........
If Lordship Salvation is a matter of sanctification and not justification, perhaps it should make no difference at all to the preaching of the Gospel?

Huh! I miss your point.

You said.....
Perhaps talk about committing one's life to Christ and being willing to 'count the cost' is actually unnecessary?

Justification is by faith alone, but it is a faith that will not be alone due to the power of God.

Matthew, I think the following sentence from the post applies to your view: "I think this belief flows from an erroneous view that human decision apart from God’s grace secures salvation and sanctification also is accomplished by man and man alone."

You said.........
For if, as Mark, says, perserverance is inevitable (though not automatic), the person who is converted under the simpe Gospel of grace will be sure to become a disciple.

I think Mark is correct and I believe he would agree that Romans 8:14 does not allow any wiggle room for a regenerate person to not be led by the Holy Spirit. This makes one a disciple and disciples follow the leading of the HOly Spirit.

I believe the real disagreement is our different views on the power and effectiveness of the work of the HOlY SPIRIT.

October 08, 2007 5:43 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Don,
Good points about how the word can draw or cause a hardening and also about discipline from God.

October 08, 2007 5:46 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

James,
Thanks for mentioning that. Man it sure sounded like Piper.

October 08, 2007 5:47 PM

 
Blogger Susan said...

Jazzy,

I know other folks who thought it was John Piper as well. I didn't know who it was (still don't).

Good post. Incidentally, I do believe in a works salvation and works sanctification - this is, both are works of God. :-)

He (not I) will complete the work that He (not I) began.

Oh, and btw, I love the term Lordship. I really do. It may not have been originally intended in a complimentary way, but I embrace it. I for one need His Lordship over me.

October 08, 2007 6:25 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Susan,
So true. The New Testament is full of exhortations to submit to Lordship sanctification........

October 08, 2007 10:34 PM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

I think my question comes down to 'what do we preach that people must do?'

If perserverance is an inevitable outcome of sanctification, I do not see that you would need to preach the Gospel in a way differently than I would.

All you need to do is tell people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Discpleship would follow inevitably with the means (pastoral teaching) in place.

Telling people to 'count the cost' and 'give one's life to Christ' would not appear to be relevant to Gospel preaching.

Would your Gospel preaching need to differ substantially from mine?

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

October 09, 2007 3:28 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Mathhew, the Holy Spirit communicates the benefits of Christ's cross-work to the believer, no? The gift of faith being one of those benefits.

Let's look at Christ's accomplishments and their effects on the believer - Because of Christ's cross-work Paul was entrusted with a message that would "open eyes,turn people from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins... " Acts 26:18-20. The Father has "conveyed us into His Son's kingdom" where there is redemption (being bought back from Satan's dark rule)and forgiveness of sins. Col. 1:12-14. Also Romans 6 teaches that we were once slaves of sin, but now, because of Christ's accomplishments on the cross, we are slaves of righteousness and of God.

Because of Christ's cross-work, His telling people to repent, through those servants of His who preach His word accurately, is like His having commanded that man to stretch forth his crippled hand, and when he has done so it is whole. And so it is when one is commanded to repent. His life will straighten out because of the regenerating influences of the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ as a result of His cross-work.

October 09, 2007 6:28 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
You said………..
I think my question comes down to 'what do we preach that people must do?'

To receive the free gift of eternal life a person must place his faith in the atonement of the son of God, Jesus Christ, whose death on the cross paid his sin debt and purchased eternal life for all that trust in faith in his sacrifice. Like Mark said, you preach the same message that Paul preached. Preach grace, sin, God’s wrath, person and work of Jesus, faith and repentance, lordship sanctification, and everything else. How is possible to give a person too much information about the gospel as long as it is accurate and true?

Knowledge about the cross is essential for a person to understand the gospel! I believe Paul said his focus must be on preaching Christ and him crucified.

October 09, 2007 8:37 AM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Okay, Wayne.

A lady asks you what she must do to be saved.

Do you tell her about sanctification and if so what do you tell her about it?

She has to catch a train in twenty minutes, so this is your opportunity to tell her how to find everlasting life.

October 09, 2007 9:20 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
Since I have taken and practice Evangelism Explosion, that would be plenty of time to give her that presentation.

Here is the five point outline:
1. Grace
2. Man
3. God
4. Jesus Christ
5. faith

1. Heaven is a free gift that is not earned or deserved.
2. Man is a sinner and cannot save himself.
3. God is merciful and doesn't want to punish us, but also is just and must punish sin.
4. Jesus Christ (who he is): the infinite God-Man. (What did he do): He died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and rose from the grave to purchase a place for us in heaven.
5. The gift is received by faith. This faith is not a temporal faith or a mere intellectual assent. Saving faith is trusting in Christ alone and what he has done rather than what we have done.

Then I would ask them if they would like to receive the gift of eternal life and clarify that it involves:
1. The transfer of trust to Christ that was spoken of in faith.
2. Accept Christ as savior.
3. Receive Jesus as Lord.
4. Repent.

This is a bare bones outline. You can get more details at the EE website.

October 09, 2007 10:31 AM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Thanks for that answer, Wayne.

You say in this post that you could define Lordship Salvation as Lordship Sanctification.

Why not Lordship Justification?

October 09, 2007 11:23 AM

 
Blogger Susan said...

I think my question comes down to 'what do we preach that people must do?'

Repent and believe.

I don't see why it should differ from what they preached in the OT and NT.

October 09, 2007 11:27 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
Come on Matthew! My post and the EE ministry makes this very clear!

Justification by faith alone is foundation of reformed theology and the reformation.........

Susan,
exactly

October 09, 2007 11:31 AM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Wayne, but in the list of requirements you gave:

1. The transfer of trust to Christ that was spoken of in faith.
2. Accept Christ as savior.
3. Receive Jesus as Lord.
4. Repent.

You include 'receiving Jesus as Lord.'

You say that is to do with sanctification not justification?

October 09, 2007 11:49 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Repent and believe is the Bible.


Mark 8:34-38 - 34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Mark 8:34-38 (Darby Translation)
Darby Translation (DARBY)
Public Domain


34And having called the crowd with his disciples, he said to them, Whoever desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me.

35For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's shall save it.

36For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?

37for what should a man give in exchange for his soul?

38For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him shall the Son of man also be ashamed when he shall come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 8:34-38 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation


34And Jesus called [to Him] the throng with His disciples and said to them, If anyone intends to come after Me, let him deny himself [forget, ignore, disown, and lose sight of himself and his own interests] and take up his cross, and [joining Me as a disciple and siding with My party] follow with Me [continually, cleaving steadfastly to Me].

35For whoever wants to save his [higher, spiritual, eternal] life, will lose it [the lower, natural, temporal life which is lived only on earth]; and whoever gives up his life [which is lived only on earth] for My sake and the Gospel's will save it [his higher, spiritual life in the eternal kingdom of God].

36For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life [in the eternal kingdom of God]?

37For what can a man give as an exchange (a compensation, a ransom, in return) for his [blessed] life [in the eternal kingdom of God]?

38For whoever is ashamed [here and now] of Me and My words in this adulterous (unfaithful) and [preeminently] sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory (splendor and majesty) of His Father with the holy angels.

Mark 8:34-38 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain



34And having called near the multitude, with his disciples, he said to them, `Whoever doth will to come after me -- let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me;

35for whoever may will to save his life shall lose it; and whoever may lose his life for my sake and for the good news' sake, he shall save it;

36for what shall it profit a man, if he may gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?

37Or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

38for whoever may be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also shall be ashamed of him, when he may come in the glory of his Father, with the holy messengers.'

October 09, 2007 12:25 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Matthew 11:27-30 - 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matthew 11:27-30 (Darby Translation)
Darby Translation (DARBY)
Public Domain



27All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son but the Father, nor does any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal [him].

28Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and *I* will give you rest.

29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls;

30for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Matthew 11:27-30 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation


27All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.

28Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest. [I will ease and relieve and refresh your souls.]

29Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest (relief and ease and refreshment and recreation and blessed quiet) for your souls.

30For My yoke is wholesome (useful, good--not harsh, hard, sharp, or pressing, but comfortable, gracious, and pleasant), and My burden is light and easy to be borne.

October 09, 2007 1:12 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
All of these are instructions on the proper response to such a great salvation that is secured by faith alone. Mark has quoted Scripture that points this out. The New Testament is crammed full of similar exhortations to repent, change, pray, obey the Lord's commands, store up treasure in heaven, avoid sin, flee from Satan, and on and on.

If this is a problem for you, your problem is with the New Testament and not he EE ministry. I would suggest that you take up and read without using a filter.

October 09, 2007 3:33 PM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Wayne, I am tying to understand your position.

You are saying that a proper response to the Gospel is to immediately "receive Jesus as Lord". Is this a matter of justification or sanctification?

October 10, 2007 9:32 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Matthew, once again...

Because of Christ's cross-work, His telling people to repent, through those servants of His who preach His word accurately, is like His having commanded that man to stretch forth his crippled hand, and when he has done so it is whole. And so it is when one is commanded to repent. His life will straighten out because of the regenerating influences of the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ as a result of His cross-work.

Justification takes place immediately when one believes. Sanctification flows from that experience as one is now reconciled to God, and is now subject to the reason God has saved them in the first place, That being conformity to Christ.

October 10, 2007 10:11 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
Following Christ is sanctification. Jesus said if you love me, you will obey my commands. Very clearly Jesus is speaking of the results of being saved. He did not say, obey me and you will be saved but rather those that love me are already saved and they obey me. Look closely at John 10 and you will see the principle of a response to being saved. Justification cannot be earned and nothing in the EE presentation suggests that. The N.T. gives many exhortations on how a Christian is to live, but this is SANCTIFICATION. Here are a few verses in John 10:

2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Matthew, this passage is a very good illustration of the reformed view. Jesus calls the redeemed with an effectual call that is 100% effective. All those that are called follow him. The Bible teaches that and so does the EE ministry. The call to faith is justification and the response of following is sanctification.

I hope that explains my view on this.
wayne

October 10, 2007 10:26 AM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

So is "receiving Jesus as Lord" a part of saving faith and therefore a condition of justification or is it a part of sanctification, a result of being born again?

October 10, 2007 11:13 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

October 10, 2007 11:23 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
I answered that. It is not a condition, it is a response that flows from regeneration. Paul put it this way:

Romans 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

I will be out for a while after this comment.

October 10, 2007 11:37 AM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

So in presenting the Gospel, you would present as a condition something that is not actually a condition for receiving eternal life?

As you said earlier:

"Then I would ask them if they would like to receive the gift of eternal life and clarify that it involves:
1. The transfer of trust to Christ that was spoken of in faith.
2. Accept Christ as savior.
3. Receive Jesus as Lord.
4. Repent."

October 10, 2007 11:40 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Romans 10:9-10 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation


9Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

John 1:29-51 - 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”
32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
The First Disciples

35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”
37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”
They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?”
39 He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour).
40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).
Philip and Nathanael

43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
46 And Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
48 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”
49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

John 20:28

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

October 10, 2007 12:36 PM

 
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Mark, you are quoting a lot of verses.

October 10, 2007 1:48 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

And from the Gospel of John at that.

October 10, 2007 1:51 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Matthew,
You said….
So in presenting the Gospel, you would present as a condition something that is not actually a condition for receiving eternal life?

No!!! here were my words that are actually words from the EE gospel presentation:

"Then I would ask them if they would like to receive the gift of eternal life and clarify that it involves:
1. The transfer of trust to Christ that was spoken of in faith.
2. Accept Christ as savior.
3. Receive Jesus as Lord.
4. Repent."

Clarifying what something involves is not setting the things that are involved as a condition. The Bible gives many examples of things that result from salvation that are not a condition of salvation. For example:
Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The only condition in this passage for eternal life is faith. It (faith) is a gift of God’s grace. For we are his workmanship (regenerated and given a new heart and desires). This workmanship includes being created in Christ Jesus for good works and He even prepared them beforehand. You see, the only condition is faith, but the power of God involved in salvation involves good works that he prepared in advance. This is lordship sanctification. The Bible says this in many places and the EE ministry says the same thing when it clarifies what salvation involves. If the EE ministry left out what the Bible teaches about repentance and lordship sanctification, it would be giving an incomplete gospel message. Involves does not mean a condition.

You have now come at me several times with the same objection, and each time I have carried you directly to Scripture to successfully demolish your objection. I should point out that it is not I, but Scripture that is making the point.......

October 10, 2007 4:25 PM

 
Blogger donsands said...

Paul said: " 'Who are You Lord?'And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazereth, whom you are persecuting.'
... So I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.'...
Then he [Ananias] said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. ... And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on the name of the Lord.'" Acts 22:8-10;14-16

In this conversion of Paul, who at the time was filled with hatred for the sect of those who believed in Christ, there must have been deep emotional godly sorrow, and humility must have overwhelmed His heart which was a moment before full of pride and self-righteous indignation. This is genuine repentance, because we hereafter have the testimony of the greatest servant of the lord to ever live, though Paul would say he was the least of all the saints.

I cannot see this conversion of a dark evil stone heart turned to flesh, as a simple confession and changing of ones mind.

I would think it would be more like when Peter fell before the Lord, and said, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!"

I thought this was an excellent passage to wrestle with, when considering a sinners conversion, because God salvation is the same for all sinners, though the circumstances may differ.

October 10, 2007 5:36 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

donsands,
Good passage of a true conversion that was from God with awesome power and resulted in repentance, obedience, and service. It was the effectual call to end all effectual calls.

October 10, 2007 8:43 PM

 
Blogger Jim said...

"It is never a perfect work by the Holy Spirit, but it is also never a total failure"

Wayne, could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Are you saying the Spirit is incapable of a perfect work; if not, what prevents Him from doing so?

October 11, 2007 11:27 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Jim,
Now that is a good question and I think my wording was not good and is definitely misleading. If I could have a mulligan, I would have said in place of that sentence: “Since the redeemed sinner is still influenced by his sinful fallen nature, sanctification does not produce a perfect Christian, but it never completely fails due to the influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Romans 8). God has ordained that perfection does not occur until glorification.”

My statement sure sounded like the Holy Spirit’s work failed in bringing perfection which I did not mean. To answer your question as to why it is not a perfect work, I think it is because that is the way God ordained it to be. He could have done a lot of things differently such as saving everyone that has ever lived. He could prevent natural disastors and evil. I guess Deut. 29:29 applies here. However, Scripture is clear in Romans 8 that the indwelling Spirit does bring about sanctification.

Thanks for that excellent observation.
wayne

October 11, 2007 1:09 PM

 
Blogger Jim said...

Thanks for the clarification Wayne. I firmly believe this aspect is at the heart of sanctification and the reason some progress further and faster than others.

Our outward man is perishing yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. We are exhorted to walk by the Spirit and thus avoid making provision for the flesh to obey its lusts.

There is definitely a cause and effect sequence here; one that we would be wise to heed.

God bless,
Jim

October 11, 2007 3:09 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Greetings to our friend from San Diego!

November 05, 2007 12:00 PM

 

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home