LOOKING TO PRAISE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

Friday, November 30, 2007

The Judgment Seat of Christ

Question: How much of our sin was dealt with on Calvary?
Answer: Every believer's sin has been dealt with on Calvary.

Question: In whole or in part?
Answer: In whole.


Question: Will believers be punished at the judgment seat of Christ for any of their sins?
Answer: Believers have already been punished in Christ - they will not be punished twice.

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20 Comments:

Blogger mark pierson said...

I'm glad you took this up!

November 30, 2007 9:18 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

The very thought that believers will be punished at the judgment seat of Christ for any of their sins takes away from the accomplishments of Christ's crosswork

November 30, 2007 9:20 AM

 
Blogger Daniel said...

Sometimes it helpful to state the obvious.

November 30, 2007 9:59 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Hmmmmm!
Makes sense to me. If the foundation of a building is faulty, then the whole building will be faulty. Wouldn't that also be true of a faulty theological system?

November 30, 2007 10:14 AM

 
Blogger Even So... said...

No double jeopardy in heaven...

November 30, 2007 10:17 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Antonio said...
Daniel, I think that you are only half right, and therefore half wrong.

Yes, without faith it is impossible to please God. But there is a disjunction between the unsaved doing works in order that he might please God for acceptance, and the saved man doing works in order to please the God who granted him such a great salvation.

Paul stated that he made it his aim to be well pleasing to the Lord for he knew that one day he would stand before Christ and receive what he had done in the body, whether good or bad (2 Cor 5:9-10).

Furthermore there should be a healthy fear in the Christian. Not of hell, but of failing to lay hold of that which Christ has laid hold of us; fear of being disqualified, fear of shame at Christ's Bema, fear of God's wrath for our unfaithfulnesses. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

"For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:30-31).

God has given us everything that pertains to life and to godliness, and has blessed us with every spiritual blessing. We are without excuse if we are not following in sanctification. And such neglect has unfavourable consequences. God does not trifle with sin.

Antonio

7:43 PM, November 29, 2007


Daniel said...
Antonio,

If I remember correctly, you believe that Christianity can be broken up into (at least) two tiers. The lowest tier you would refer to as 'unfaithful' Christians - citing the Greek word "apistia". These who come to the judgment seat of Chirst you would say are shamed there and enter into heaven as a distinct, non-ruling class. The "upper" tier of Christians, those whom you would call "faithful" recieve praise at the judgment seat, and will enter into the kingdom as co-rulers with Christ, ruling over the lesser, "apistia" Christians.

Given your perspective on the bematos seat, and your two tier understanding of Christianity by which you adorn your understanding of the bematos, I am not surprised that you would conclude I am half wrong, in fact I am surprised to find you so generous.

7:32 AM, November 30, 2007

November 30, 2007 10:57 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Antonio said...
Daniel, I think that you are only half right, and therefore half wrong.

Yes, without faith it is impossible to please God. But there is a disjunction between the unsaved doing works in order that he might please God for acceptance, and the saved man doing works in order to please the God who granted him such a great salvation.
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So far I agree.
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Paul stated that he made it his aim to be well pleasing to the Lord for he knew that one day he would stand before Christ and receive what he had done in the body, whether good or bad (2 Cor 5:9-10).
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Still agree
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Furthermore there should be a healthy fear in the Christian. Not of hell, but of failing to lay hold of that which Christ has laid hold of us;
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Laying hold of that wich Christ has laid hold of us appears on Phillipians 3. Paul was straining, pressing forward in His sanctification here. Was fear is driving force here? Perhaps it is only secondary. Firstly, in the context,it is the desire springing from a regenerated heart (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 32:39-40; Ezek 36:25-27; 2 Cor 3:3-18; Hebrews 8:6-13; 10:15-16.
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fear of being disqualified, fear of shame at Christ's Bema, fear of God's wrath for our unfaithfulnesses.
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God's wrath on a Christian? Unscriptural!
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The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

"For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:30-31).
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That potion of scripture is directed at professors of Christianity. Those who are false professors are the ones who need fear Him here.
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God has given us everything that pertains to life and to godliness, and has blessed us with every spiritual blessing. We are without excuse if we are not following in sanctification.
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Agreed!
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And such neglect has unfavourable consequences.
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Yes, loss of reward.
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God does not trifle with sin.
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Right, it was paid for at Calvary. PERIOD!

Mark

November 30, 2007 11:24 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Being "born from above" (John 3:3- 8; Titus 3:5) is the starting point in Paul's ministry as he is a minister of the New Covenent (2 Cor. 3:6). ALL things that aim heavenward in the Christian life spring forth from the Indwelling Holy Spirit. Desires for God and Christ-likeness as well as the desire to further His Kingdom all issue from that new nature.

November 30, 2007 11:38 AM

 
Blogger Bhedr said...

Yes it is very true that Antonio and some others in FGT seem to have a problem understanding the merits of Christ and I think it stems from them trying to stretch the one who shows up at the feast without a robe being cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. They seem to implicate a hybrid form of a purgatory of some kind while the faithful are feasting in Heaven. This is very unhealthy in leading people to trust in Christ alone and His finished work at the Cross.

I dont know why some continue to overlook this very important area and the fact that they always seem to sift away at what one must trust in to be saved, to the point of Christ's Deity and the Cross.

November 30, 2007 9:10 PM

 
Blogger Bhedr said...

In this life only we will be chastened for our sins. In this life only.

November 30, 2007 9:12 PM

 
Blogger donsands said...

"As far as the East is from the West"

"My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!"

It is well with my soul!

The prodigal son came back to his father thinking he was in for an awkward and perhaps unloving reception.
But was he ever wrong.

The Father loves us all much more than we love Him.

November 30, 2007 9:23 PM

 
Blogger Lou Martuneac said...

Greetings:

This latest strange twist of theology coming from Antonio da Rosa and the GES, which originate with Zane Hodges, should come as no suprise to anyone who has read his blog.

You will find more of this teaching on a "punitive" Judgment Seat of Christ (JSC) from...

J. Faust The Rod: Will God Spare It?

M. Cauley Outer Datkness This is going to be 2,400 page document published by Schoettle.

My understanding is that Faust and Cauley have taken what Dillow wrote and went to greater extremes with it.

This error on the JSC can be traced back to to the 1800's by men such as Pember, Govett and G. H. Lang.

In da Rosa's mention of his coming (now published) study on the JSC he cites Lang, Dillow and Hodges as his sources.

He wrote, "In the near future, I want to take a break from this internal debate. I would like to touch on some topics that Erich Sauer and G.H. Lang bring up in the books I read of them. In some of the writings I have read of Traditional Free Grace advocates, they disparage the idea of punitive aspects of the Bema. George Zeller and others have taken a strong stance against the writings of Zane Hodges and Joseph Dillow when it comes to some aspects of Bema Judgment. It would be good to flesh out some of these things, as I believe that the punitive aspects of the Judgment Seat of Christ are strong deterrents to carnal living."

http://free-grace.blogspot.com/2007/11/my-meeting-with-charlie-bing-and-jb.html

It seems pretty obvious that da Rosa has to some degree also adopted this extremism on the JSC.

What one man does in moderation (Dillow) others (Faust, Cauley, da Rosa) will eventually take to extremes.


LM

PS: The above is an edited version of a note I posted at my blog.

December 01, 2007 5:06 PM

 
Blogger Antonio said...

Daniel,

Let us state the obvious.

Sins are as far removed as the east is from the west. Jesus died for every sin that anyone ever committed or would commit, from the day of their birth unto the day of their death. They no longer have any bearing whatsoever in regards to man's eternal destiny.

At the judgment seat of Christ, sin will not be an issue. What will be the issue is what we have done in the role of steward/servant; what we have built upon the foundation of Christ. Each servant of the Lord will be examined and will receive that which he has done in the body.

It is abundantly clear that unfaithfulness has clear temporal consequences, both natural and divine. Why not eternal consequences? What is the difference? How is it that Christians incur divine action against their sin in the temporal stage? Does this not take away from the accomplishments of Christ's crosswork?

The lack of true thinking and the inconsistency of thought coming from this crowd is astonishing.

Furthermore it is obvious that a child can incur the penalty due his disobedience within the familial setting, yet be completely forgiven. The unfaithful child can suffer loss! Imagine this scene: a father telling a child, "You are completely forgiven. The estrangement caused by your misdeeds is completely removed. But because of your unfaithfulness to the rules of this household, you will not be allowed to have a car, a phone, you will not be allowed to go to disneyland, to your friend's party, to the beach. Because of your unfaithfulness to rules of this household, you will suffer loss of privileges.

It is in the role of steward that we will all give an account. And all unfaithfulnesses to that charge will be reviewed, as all of our faithful deeds.

Rightly divide the word, gentlemen. Sin is removed as the barrier between God and man. It is gone. But our lives as stewards/servants will be examined and we will give an account for all that we have done, whether good or bad.

Antonio

December 01, 2007 5:09 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Antonio,

In your comment that I cut and paste here you mention "sin" and God's "wrath". Now you merely talk of lost reward - something I acknowledged in my response to you, that I agree will happen. There is not one commenter here that would disagree with that. We all acknowledge rewards can and,in some cases, will be lost at the Bema Seat. Our problem is with your previous mention of sin and wrath upon the Christian. Show me one scripture where the Christian can or ever will be subject to God's wrath. His chastening, yes; but wrath, no. Wrath has only to do with His Judgement of the unsaved.

December 01, 2007 8:51 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

"fear of God's wrath ..."

Yup, we're watching you here, crossless one.

Since I've already been banned from UoG blog, it won't take much for me to take similar action with you, sir. Inflamatory comments like this, "The lack of true thinking and the inconsistency of thought coming from this crowd is astonishing." will get you banned. There has never been a time where your comments here weren't answered and your arguments defeated. Since you are to the left of classic dispyism - FGT - you will always be wrong, and defeated. It comes with the territory, I guess.

December 01, 2007 10:17 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Antonio said………
The lack of true thinking and the inconsistency of thought coming from this crowd is astonishing.

Wow! Could it be that this crowd is very consistent in affirming that your thinking is not true and you have built on the foundation of the person and work of Christ with hay and wood that will be burned up (1 Cor. 3:15). If true thinking is to believe, as you do, that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven by saved Christians, then I guess I am honored for you to say I lack true thinking.

Wayne

December 02, 2007 12:00 AM

 
Blogger Bhedr said...

We are never going to have true joy and victory in our lives until we get away from crossless and the faulty theology that Antonio is prescribing. Until we understand that Divine wrath and penal substitution has been satisfied at Calvary we will continue to drive in circles trying to harmonize law with grace in the FGT courts. Until we understand that all of our sin (and unfaithfulness is considered sin as well) was nailed to the cross how can we move on in joy? If we cant believe that God has sacrificed for us in completeness and in an eternal substitionary scope then how can we sacrifice for God? Can I repeat that? Unless we believe in the finished work of the cross and see that God has sacrificed for us then how can we sacrifice for God? Grace teaches us to learn of Gods faithfulness and build on our faith. Not threats of more judgment or wrath of God after this life for the Christian and weeping and gnashing of teeth when the Bible clearly states that God in his grace will wipe away all of our tears.

Truly the hymn It is Well with My Soul needs to be studied more by some of the FGracers. It is somehow not being understood. Until we see that our sins are gone and were buried 2000years ago how can we rest in Christ. Antonios theology seems to call us to rest but in the long run it makes one restless and unthankful for the death burial and resurrection and pulls these precious truths out from underneath many believers and even begins to shipwreck faith. I cannot subscribe to it and I think it is time that some of the other FGers out there stop trying to harmonize his position out by trying to keep the peace and thereby lending further creedance to things that are simply untrue. How can we rejoice and have victory in our lives thinking that we continue to be under the wrath of God as His children? This will lead people away from the love of God... not towards it and it will lead to a legal performance trap. One that uses manipulative tactics to keep one to be obedient as apposed to the natural free course of Gods grace and love in our lives that encourages us in obedience and out of the true freeness of His grace.

December 02, 2007 12:58 AM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

bhedr,
Well said....

December 02, 2007 8:19 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Well said, Brian.

December 02, 2007 11:41 AM

 
Blogger Daniel said...

Antonio asked: It is abundantly clear that unfaithfulness has clear temporal consequences, both natural and divine. Why not eternal consequences? What is the difference? How is it that Christians incur divine action against their sin in the temporal stage? Does this not take away from the accomplishments of Christ's crosswork?

Question #1: (why not eternal consequences [for unfaithfulness]?)
Answer: Who amongst us has said that unfaithlessness would garner no eternal consequence? There will certainly be an eternal consequence. What -was- said, and I restate it now, is that the punitive consequences of all our sins has been dealt with on calvary such that there will be no punitive consequences at the bematos. That is not the same as saying our unfaithfulness is inconsequential - for as Mark pointed out - we all readily admit that the rewards given out to us on that day will reflect the faithfulness of our walk in this day - that is, we all agree that there are consequences to unfaithfulness - but that these same consequences are not punitive, for such a thought would be inconsistent with Christ's finished work on Calvary.

Question #2: (what is the difference [between the temporal consequences of unfaithfulness and the eternal consequences of unfaithfulness]?)
Answer: I answered this in the first question.

Question #3: How is it that Christians incur divine action against their sin in the temporal stage?
Answer: Every sin that a person sins (believer or otherwise) carries with it eternal condemnation. All sinners are condemned by their sin - even though God hasn't officially judged them yet. That judgment will happen on judgment day where every last one of us, believer or otherwise will be judged by Jesus Christ.

But all who are "in Christ" were in Christ on Calvary. Their punishment has already taken place in Christ. There is therefore no more condemnation for them, because even though they have died in Christ on Calvary - yet they were raised with Christ from the dead through the same union with Christ that put them on the cross. On judgment day they will be judged guilty, but the sentence will have already been carried out. No more punishment is allotted to them. They are "justified" because the penalty against them has been satisfied - God has been entirely and eternally propitiated.

The sins of believers, therefore, incur eternal punishment just like everyone else's - and on judgment day we, along with everyone else, will receive the guilty verdict - but our condemnation has already taken place in Christ, and we will not be condemned again.

Question #4: Does this not take away from the accomplishments of Christ's crosswork?
Answer: No it does not. In fact it magnifies Christ's work on the cross.
___________

I appreciate your encouragement to rightly divide the word. You could help by letting us know if you are now stepping away from your errant position that Christians will be punished at the judgment seat of Christ.

December 03, 2007 1:55 PM

 

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