Questions from Romans 8 ????? Welcome goe and Alvin!!!
Romans 8:9 says the following:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
QUESTION! Can anyone without the indwelling Spirit be saved?
Romans 8:14 says the following:
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
QUESTIONS!
1) Is it a characteristic of all of the sons of God to be led by the Spirit of God or is it possible for some to totally reject the leading of the Holy Spirit?
2) Is it possible to be saved and not be a son of God?
posted by jazzycat at 8:57 AM
21 Comments:
Some view what they call Lordship salvation as man's attempt to add works to his justification?
The Bible teaches Lordship sanctification where sinners are first changed by the Spirit and justified through faith in Jesus Christ and then sanctified by the same Spirit through the power of God.
The error believes in a man powered sanctification that may fail by rejecting the lead of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If true this would mean that the Holy Spirit fails in His attempt and Jesus' prayer in John 17 (Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.) goes unanswered. This view of a victory of the flesh and Satan over the will of God is strange to say the least.
The Bible teaches a Spirit powered sanctification that gains the victory as John tells us in 1 John 5:4.....
October 29, 2008 9:23 AM
I truly, truly do not understand why this is so difficult to grasp for some people. I read the thread from UOG, and it seems that y'alls explanation of the fact that you do not believe in a works salvation is completely ignored.
Thus far, I don't know anyone who is a Calvinist that does. (believe in a works salvation)
Justification = one time event - accomplished by grace alone, thru faith alone, in Christ alone. Grace that is absolutely free, too.
Sanctification = lifelong process - accomplished by grace thru the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.
This notion of believing 'the promise of Jesus to guarantee your eternal well-being' is laughable, IMO.
October 29, 2008 9:44 AM
Can anyone without the indwelling Spirit be saved?
No.
Is it a characteristic of all of the sons of God to be led by the Spirit of God or is it possible for some to totally reject the leading of the Holy Spirit?
I think we can resist the leading of the Holy Spirit, but I don't think we can finally and ultimately reject it. How long we're allowed to resist is up to God. Certainly His will will override ours.
Is it possible to be saved and not be a son of God?
No.
October 29, 2008 9:51 AM
They would say that it is possible to be saved and not be a son of God. They view the sons of God as mature christians as opposed to all others who are saved by grace. Becoming a son in Romans 8:14 is completely up to each Christian to grow to that state wherein they are led of the Spirit. Therefore, to their way of thinking, a Christian can indeed go through life without being led by the Spirit. Being led by the Spirit is for those who have applied themselves to spiritual growth.
October 29, 2008 10:51 AM
IOW, "sons of God" is a merrited position, according to the GES.
October 29, 2008 10:52 AM
This is where a system obssessed with assurance takes you. It is a system that diminishes the work of the Spirit's regeneration, and elevates the "can do's" of man, as well as his ability of free choice.
October 29, 2008 10:58 AM
Regeneration is reduced to "potential" status rather than a life changing experience.
October 29, 2008 11:02 AM
This discussion in Romans 8 is just one example of many of why it is absolutely impossible to have meaningful dialogue with the GES. To say that they do theology different would be quite an understatement
October 29, 2008 11:27 AM
QUESTION! Can anyone without the indwelling Spirit be saved?
Answer: no
QUESTIONS!
1) Is it a characteristic of all of the sons of God to be led by the Spirit of God or is it possible for some to totally reject the leading of the Holy Spirit?
Answer: I would say that it is definitly possible to reject the leading of the HS because Paul teaches that there is such a thing as a believer who does not walk in the spirit:
16This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
We have there a situation in which a believer could get in trouble with the law by following the lusts of the flesh rather than by being led by the Spirit. This would indicate that it can and does happen. In verse 20 it even says "hatred" is evidence of not being led by the spirit. Surely some Christians over time have given way to hatred and even died in such sin.
2) Is it possible to be saved and not be a son of God?
Answer: NO.
John 1:12 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name...
October 29, 2008 1:21 PM
That larger passage I pasted up above was from Galatians 5. 5:18 says "IF" - that is a big IF.
October 29, 2008 1:23 PM
On my way to work.
Quickly
Rose they that do such things shall not inherrit the Kingdom of God. There is the dividing line. The verses before characterize the unregenerate, while the verses that follow, along with the truth of verse 17, characterize the regenerate. Failure to distinguish the two types of people here is not good. It completely flies in the face of the fact that the Bible difines a Christian as one who is led by the Spirit, Rom. 8:14
October 29, 2008 1:55 PM
"if" in verse 5:18 means all Christians. All Christians are led by the Spirit - Romans 7:4-6; 2 Cor.3:2-18.
October 29, 2008 2:01 PM
Rose,
Thanks. I think Mark's explanation is correct. You left the last verse of the paragraph out of your Scripture passage that you quoted, which I think reinforces Mark's point as it says..... Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
To belong to Christ is to be saved I would think.
Have you voted yet? There seems to be a little ray of hope in the polls today.
October 29, 2008 4:12 PM
Wayne,
No I haven't voted yet. I get into the excitement of election day voting. I would never opt for early voting unless I knoew I was going to be out of town.
I didn't watch the infomercial last night... did you?
Mark,
Are you still watching the polls? Surely you must be a little more encouraged if you are?
October 30, 2008 9:38 AM
Wayne,
I didn't mean to leave that verse off.
"Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh" to me means that if we're born-again, then we recognize that our sin was on the cross with Christ 2000 years ago. Our sin and flesh were there. But while we're still in this life, the flesh and the spirit war against eachother. The way to win the war is bby reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive to God... and by walking in the spirit. Just doing it. Not studying about it, but doing it by trial and error, just like a baby learns to walk. There isn't always success, but as that baby keeps trying, only then can he learn to walk.
If there's another way to see it that means that all Christians have succeeded in the body in ALREADY crucfying their own flesh with its passion and desires, then I can't imagine that.
October 30, 2008 9:54 AM
Rose,
I didn't watch it either. I have been totally repulsed by his lying and hiding what and who he really is as revealed in his book, former church, relationship with Ayers, etc.
While I agree with you completely on the fact that Christians still battle and succomb to indwelling sin, the verse states that all Christians have crucified the flesh. In context with the entire paragraph, I believe Paul is talking about more than being crucified with Christ at the cross. I believe it means that a Christian is no longer completely dominated by sin and, while he may stumble, his overall direction and walk is in the things of the Spirit rather than the flesh.
This is because of the influence, power, and leading of the indwelling Spirit and is thus God powered. Before regeneration, man does not have the power or ability to please God. Such attempts are but filty rags in His eyes.
October 30, 2008 10:16 AM
The following by J.C. Ryle:
I am not what I once used to be!
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14
The regenerate man is a holy man. He endeavors . . .
to live according to God's will,
to do the things that please God,
to avoid the things that God hates.
His aim and desire is to love God with heart and soul, and mind and strength--and to love his neighbor as himself. His wish is to be continually looking to Christ as his Example as well as his Savior; and to show himself Christ's friend, by obeying whatever He commands.
No doubt he is not perfect. None will tell you that sooner than himself. He groans under the burden of indwelling corruption cleaving to him. He finds an evil principle within him constantly warring against grace, and trying to draw him away from God. Yet, in spite of all short-comings, the average bent and bias of . . .
his ways is holy;
his doings holy;
his tastes holy
and his habits holy.
In spite of all his swerving and turning aside, like a ship going against a contrary wind, the general course of his life is in one direction--toward God and for God. He will generally be able to say, with old John Newton, "I am not what I ought to be. I am not what I want to be. I am not what I hope to be in another world. But still, I am not what I once used to be! By the grace of God, I am what I am!"
"Let none conclude that they have no grace, because they have many imperfections in their obedience. Your grace may be very weak and imperfect, and yet you may be truly born again, and be a genuine son of God and heir of heaven."
October 30, 2008 10:34 AM
All: I am on a library computer now. My daughter is doing a massive homework assignment and her computer isn't able to print. So she must use mine. I'll be back up soon, the Lord willing.
October 30, 2008 11:16 AM
I continue to marvel at your patience with these people, Mark. I was gone for all those months and when I come back I find that the same battle rages. You are far more patient than I am! Or maybe I'm just not called to invest my time in this debate. I'm glad somebody is!
I know you have read the blog Pearls Before Swine. I honestly wonder when such a directive becomes applicable in this case.
"For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the LORD (my caps) Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:17-20
Keep the faith, my brother!
October 30, 2008 10:03 PM
Wow, you deleted my comment. I only meant to wish you well. Sorry if that offended you in some way.
Grace upon grace,
Brian
November 02, 2008 1:05 PM
Brian,
Thanks for stopping by. The only comment I have deleted lately was on the thread just above this one. It was by an atheist who comes by here to mock Christianity. If you had one deleted, it must have been a glitch. Again, thanks for your visit....
November 02, 2008 1:20 PM
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