The Carnal Christian: Wayne and Mark Consider the Issue
The following discusion took place on another blog.
Mark said - the “carnal Christians” in Corinth… What is the standard? Christ Himself? Then wouldn’t we all be “carnal” in comparison? Hodges and Ryrie suggest that one who once professed Christ can even lose faith and become hostile to the things of God for the remainder of their lives. Hmmm. Where in the Bible do they see such an example? Certainly not in Corinth. Even these folk “[came] behind in no gift” and were “waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”. 1 Cor. 1:7. It says that Paul praised them because they remembered him in all things and kept the ordinances as he delivered them to them. 1 Cor. 11:2. What about that great chapter, 2 Cor. 7:7 where we read of their earnest desire, their mourning, their fervent mind toward Paul. What about the repentance mentioned in verse 9?
For the Free Grace Theology proponent’s definition of the “carnal Christian” well, he can’t point to the Corinthian Church.
Wayne said - I guess we all use filters to a certain extent when we read Scripture. I hope we can agree that when the Scriptures use the term “in Christ”, it refers to a characteristic that all saved believers have. IOW all saved and redeemed people are in Christ. Certainly the Bible refers to infants in Christ, but the term “infants” points to a condition that is not permanent.
When a word search of “in Christ” is done a very long list of passages in many different New Testament books reveal a lot about the attributes of those who are redeemed and in Christ. I will not go through them, as they are clear in their meaning. One theme is repeated over and over and that is those who are in Christ Jesus are changed people that have different attitudes and behaviors. They are certainly not sinless and I think you are mistaken when you say, ” This really does get down to an issue of whether or not a christian can sin…and for how long?” No, the carnal Christian issue really gets down to whether a saved redeemed person can remain unchanged after his regeneration and show no effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit for the rest of his life. Sin is not the issue. Good works are not the issue. A new creation is the issue as 2 Cor. 5:17 points out. The issue is can the Holy Spirit be a total failure in His ministry of regeneration and indwelling believers? If the Holy Spirit can totally fail in making a person a new creation in Christ, then Paul is wrong and some people are saved but remain the same people they were before being saved.
This view denies the power of God and asserts that a regenerate person can thwart the will of God. It is one thing to assert through free will that God allows some to reject salvation although they have the ability to accept. However, it is quite another to suggest that God is powerless to change a persons’ heart when he clearly states that is exactly his intention in many places in the New Testament.
Mark said - If one is going to hold to the notion that one can profess Christ and then go on to live a life unresponsive to Christ, only to use 1 Cor. 3:1-4 as a foundation for that notion, then my challenge is that you must be consistent and go on to consider ALL of the information provided in both Corinthian leters. To do that is to allow oneself to do a REAL wordstudy.
Wayne said - Mark has certainly shown conclusively that the condition Paul spoke of in 1 Cor. 3 was not a permanent condition as 2 Cor. 7:9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. points out as well.
You say that, “Mark and Wayne are saying some curious things about carnality. …both seeming to think Christians can and cannot be carnal.” A quick skimming of my comments will show that the views I have toward carnality are coming directly from Scripture which indicates that all saved men are regenerate, all regenerate men are new creations in Christ, all men who are in Christ are sons of God, all sons of God are led by the Spirit, and so on. The carnal Christian view that I and Scripture takes exception with is the position that a saved Christian can choose not to be a disciple and reject the lordship of Christ Jesus totally. This is a huge difference from a Christian having a battling indwelling sin. It is not a curious position at all. It is a Biblical position that is supported by Scripture.
To extrapolate and say, “Saved sinners continue to sin. Therefore, a saved sinner can totally reject being a disciple of Christ and sin at will without repentance.” is not a Biblical teaching in anywhere in Scripture. The process of discipleship is called sanctification and the Bible clearly shows sanctification to be a part of grace and all who are saved as shown by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. are indeed sanctified by the Spirit. They are led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14).
Therefore, I must ask the following question: Is the Bible also saying some curious things about carnality?
Mark said - An entire system of thought is in the balances here. My comments need to be hit head-on. I will not be veered off of my observations on the Corinthian church.
Labels: Carnal Christian
posted by mark pierson at 11:01 AM
|
136 comments
