LOOKING TO PRAISE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

Tuesday, June 09, 2009

Novelty?

The following is from that latter comments on"Free Grace Theology Blog". They are from a man who claims to know Calvinism backwards and forward, a man who claims that Calvinists follow the man Calvin instead of the Bible. Let's see if you can pick up on the irony here -

"This is very easy to say. Just think about the fact that nearly EVERY, pastor, teacher, commentary, systematic theology, confession, of EVERY Christian denomination teaches doctrine which would make it impossible for anyone to ACCEPT what we teach! Just think that there are hundreds of verses in the Bible which SEEM to contradict Free Grace Theology, and ALL of them are "explained" in such a manner by almost all that they rule out the Free Grace interpretation. Further, even the very few denominations, (Once Saved Always Saved Baptist churches are one exception), still in the large part teach a "muddled gospel." Even most of them teach that if one apostatizes completely, and denies Christ, he was not saved, although this is contradicted by their Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. Refined Free Grace theology is a very rare teaching. I fully believe that Free Grace Theology is the only true soteriology, but I do not think that the very good exegesis of verses which SEEM to deny Free Grace Theology are easily come by. I believe that Zane and Bob and others at Grace Evangelical Society have been a real gift to the church, a gift which by the way, is either not known or rejected by most of Christendom. "

"This is what I mean. The same is true of John 11:25-27. The truth that Zane pointed out is obvious AFTER it is explained. The same is true of I John 5:1. I think that millions upon millions have read John 3:16, and I John 5:1 and considered that they believed them. I know I did. I didn't see the obvious in these passages even after I was saved for a long time. It has not been until recently, (in the last few years: that the obvious has become obvious.) Grace Evangelical Society's major goal has been to teach the obvious - that eternal life is given by faith alone in Christ alone. There have been numerous JOTGES papers directed to this point. Hundreds of pages have been spent exegeting verses which SEEM to deny our Free Grace understanding. It seems very likely that a person who is sincerely seeking light on this subject could have a very difficult time reaching the truth when every commentary, systematic theology, Bible teacher, and preacher is teaching that it is not true. After all, there are lengthy passages which SEEM to contradict our understanding of all these verses. Sure, they can be explained, by good exegetes, like Zane, Bob, and others from Grace Evangelical Society but the reasoning is certainly not trivial nor it is obvious."

"I guess I should rephrase my position. I believe that millions of professing Christians THINK that they believe John 3:16 who don't. And they will never come to that realization until we confront them show them that they really do not believe it. BUT it is not John 3:16 in isolation which will ever change their minds. They are too deeply embedded in error. To be convinced of the truth they need to have teaching about the "one drink," never thirst. Eats bread never hunger, etc. There are Greek "experts" which teach that the present tense of "believe" pisteuo, means "continue to believe," which supports Arminianism and Calvinism. A very recent book, "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" by Daniel B. Wallace, professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, teaches this error. And of course, almost ALL other Greek grammars also teach this error, Since both Arminianism and Calvinism and almost every other denomination teach this. In one of Zane's talks, (papers) he cites an older Greek authority who shows that this is wrong."

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14 Comments:

Blogger Ten Cent said...

Hi Mark,

The irony is not lost on me.

In Christ,
Ten Cent

June 09, 2009 12:06 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

"Refined Free Grace theology is a very rare teaching. I fully believe that Free Grace Theology is the only true soteriology,..."

Amazing...

June 09, 2009 12:18 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Let me see, we follow Calvin instead of the Bible, but they follow the Bible as explained to them by Hodges and Wilkin. I get it. Their guys got it right and our guys got it wrong.

There is one huge elephant in the room here. Mark and I always use nothing but Scripture in our debates and they are constantly referring to Zane Hodges and his views. Calvinism is just an accepted term for a particular doctrinal view.

I challenge any free gracer to bring one instance of where I (Wayne) AKA Jazzycat have ever appealed to Calvin as a source for any view that I have. I am constantly being accused of it, so surely they can find something on my blog or in a comment somewhere where I cite Calvin as my proof.

On the other hand, if I had one dollar for everytime a free grace advocate appeals to Zane Hodges, then I would be able to buy myself a brand new camera.

wayne

June 09, 2009 1:10 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

How about this gem...

"There are Greek "experts" which teach that the present tense of "believe" pisteuo, means "continue to believe," which supports Arminianism and Calvinism. A very recent book, "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" by Daniel B. Wallace, professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, teaches this error. And of course, almost ALL other Greek grammars also teach this error, Since both Arminianism and Calvinism and almost every other denomination teach this. In one of Zane's talks, (papers) he cites an older Greek authority who shows that this is wrong."

June 09, 2009 1:13 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

John 3:16
I did a post on John 3:16 to demonstrate the error of reading information into passages that just is not there. John 3:16 states a truth that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. It is silent on whether sovereign election is true. It is silent on the discipleship or lack thereof of believers. To determine these issues, one must go elsewhere. That is what is obvious about John 3:16 Yet they read their presuppositions into this passage and think it obvious.

June 09, 2009 1:13 PM

 
Blogger Gary said...

Hi Guys, I am here because Mark alerted me that he posted something I wrote here. So I'll comment if that's ok.

To begin with, John Calvin did not teach the Calvinism the is prevalent today. He taught that the essence of saving faith is assurance. Next, he taught that Christ died for all mankind.

If youall are 5-point TULIP Calvinists then I know where you are coming from.

This is what I refer to as a doctrine of demons. The L "limited atonement," is the most blatent contradiction of scripture.

1. But let me ask each of you, do you have eternal life?
2. If your response to 1 is yes, can you lose it?
3. Again, if your response to 1 was yes, how do you know you have it?

Thanks, Gary McNees

June 09, 2009 5:09 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

The Bible on limited atonement:
Gary, I hope you do not mind me using Scripture to discuss limited atonement.

Matthew 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

In Mt. 20:28 above Jesus died for the ‘many’. Are the ‘many’ believers only or everyone that has ever lived. Since the passage speaks of his death providing a ransom (redemption) for the many, this passage teaches universalism if the ‘many’ includes everyone that has ever lived. Since Scripture clearly does not teach universalism, this passage must mean that the atonement of Jesus was for believers only and not everyone who has ever lived.

If his atonement provided a ransom for the unredeemed, then how can God punish them in hell? Please note that neither demons nor Calvin wrote Mt. 20:28.

June 09, 2009 10:11 PM

 
Blogger jazzycat said...

Gary,
I do not understand the purpose of your second paragraph, since I do not quote Calvin or base my doctrine on John Calvin. I can’t speak for Mark or anyone else, but I think you are wrongly assuming that we get our doctrinal positions from Calvin. I have tried many times to make that clear, but I guess it falls on deaf ears.

As for your little quiz.
1) Yes, I have eternal life as I was justified by faith alone at the moment of belief.
2) Cannot lose eternal life because immediately after saving faith comes adoption as a son of God (see Romans 8)
3) Romans 8:16 makes more sense to me than the stock FG answer.

Here is your question. Do you believe [as Zane Hodges did] that a person who claimed to have faith in Christ, but moved on to an atheism of mocking Christ for the rest of a long life was really saved in the first place? A yes or no will do fine.

June 09, 2009 10:31 PM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

"If youall are 5-point TULIP Calvinists then I know where you are coming from."
----
Frankly, I haven't seen much evidence of that.
========
"This is what I refer to as a doctrine of demons. The L "limited atonement," is the most blatent contradiction of scripture."
----------
Actually, Gary I hold to the Atonement being unlimited in scope. Its benefits are applied by the Father to His elect.
------------
"1. But let me ask each of you, do you have eternal life?"
-----------
Yes! I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
----
"2. If your response to 1 is yes, can you lose it?"
-------------
Nope! Jesus said that all who believe in Him He will raise up at the last day.
--------------
"3. Again, if your response to 1 was yes, how do you know you have it?"
---------
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..."

June 10, 2009 6:35 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

The following is from my posting on this blog back in 2006 -

Tuesday, April 11, 2006
Spurgeon on Assurance

"The Holy Spirit, who enabled me to believe, gave me peace through believing. I felt as sure that I was forgiven as before I felt sure of condemnation. I had been certain of my condemnation because the Word of God declared it, and my conscience bore witness to it, but when the Lord justified me, I was equally certain by the same witness. The Word of the Lord in scripture saith, "He that believeth on Him is not condemned," and my conscience bore witness that I believed, and that God in pardoning me was just. Thus I had the witness of the Holy Spirit and also my own conscience, and these two agreed in one."

Taken From C.H.Spurgeon Autobiography: Vol.1 "The Early Years" page 92

In this same paragraph Spurgeon goes on to put down the teachings of a certain Dr. Johnson who held to the idea that no man could have assurance of faith. Spurgeon said that such a man was no reliable judge of theology. He added that Dr. Johnson should have studied his Bible a little more, and have a little more enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, then he too would have come to know his own pardon.

I whole heartedly agree!

I am sick of these super-spiritual people, who claim to be Calvinist, running around Christendom claiming that no man can have assurance. What a lie!

posted by mark pierson at 12:14 PM | 8 comments links to this post

June 10, 2009 7:33 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

Did Calvin hold to "limited atonement? Please read the following -

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/NicoleRogerCalvinsLimitedAtonement.htm

June 10, 2009 11:09 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

http://bluecollarmusings.blogspot.com/2009/06/calvin-on-atonement.html

June 10, 2009 11:15 AM

 
Blogger mark pierson said...

For all interested readers - the second link actually works.

June 10, 2009 11:17 AM

 
Blogger Gojira said...

Uhm Zane said....Zane said...Zane said...Zane said...Zane said this...Zane said that...let's go into our own quiet place and listen to what Zane said cause Zane said this and Zane said that and if you disagree with Zane then you can't be saved because Zane is ABSOLUTELY FREE so let's all go to our quiet place and listen to Zane say this and that! ZANE ZANE ZANE

June 12, 2009 7:21 PM

 

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