On Suffering
Mark asked me to post this on Bluecollar, so here ye go:
As many of you know, my husband lives with chronic pain, 24/7/365, due to degenerative disk disease. There isn't one aspect of his life that this pain doesn't affect. Not one. And as time marches on, the affects are spreading more and more into the life of the family. I'm not going to sit here and say that his pain directly causes me to suffer, but suffer we all do to some degree. Of course, Roger suffers the most. I cannot even begin to imagine what he goes through on a daily basis. From getting up each morning, much earlier than would normally be needed because it takes quite a while to get his body moving - literally. To driving, which is becoming increasingly more uncomfortable. To walking great distances, or even not so great distances. To just sitting. He's begun to do a lot more standing during church services, and anywhere that requires sitting for a long period of time. Of course there's his medtronic pain pump, which was surgically implanted in Dec 2005. This thing pumps his spinal column full of various pain medications around the clock. Thank God for His miracles in modern medicine. The drugs go directly into the spinal column and don't affect his mind. But it took over a year to get things completely regulated.So...I say all this to say that as believers in Christ, we are told we will suffer. We will endure trials. Some will have their 'thorns' that God won't be removing. But there is a reason that James (1:2) tells us to, "consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials." And it appears that reason is, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance and the perfect result is so that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (v 3,4)
I found this excerpt from a book by Elisabeth Elliot entitled, A Path Through Suffering. I thought I would share.
Reasons for suffering
We suffer for our own sake
*that we may learn who God is
*that we may learn to trust*that we may learn to obey
*it is the condition of discipleship
*it is required of soldiers
*we are being pruned that we may bear fruit
*that we may be shaped into the image of Christ
*that our faith may be strengthened
*that our faith may be tested and refind
*that we may reach spiritual maturity
*to produce in us endurance, character, hope, joy, generosity
We suffer for the sake of God's people
*that they may obtain salvation
*to give them courage
*that because of death working in us, life may work in them
*that grace may extend to more
*that our generosity may bless othersWe suffer for the world's sake
*that it may be shown whata love and obedience mean
*that the life of Jesus may be visible in ordinary human fleshWe suffer for Christ's sake
*that we may be identified with Him in His crucifixion
*suffering is the corollary of faith
*that we may share in His suffering
*that we may share in His glory
"As thousands have testified, were it not for the wounds, they would never have known so deeply Him whose wounds speak."
"We cannot make ourselves holy. But when we surrender ourselves to the Lord, learning day by day to treat all that comes to us with peace of soul and firm conviction that His will governs all, He will see to our growth in grace." ~Elisabeth Elliot, A Path Through Suffering
I wish all of you could know Roger, I really do. He is an honorable and humble man. He is a bright testimony to the continual, sustaining, sufficient grace of God. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who lives day to day, completely and utterly dependent on God like this man does. He is an example to me, to be sure, and I thank God that He saw fit to allow me the privilege of being his wife. Lord, help me to live up to being the woman you've called me to be in this marriage, and in the circumstances to come. AMEN.
posted by Anonymous at 9:00 AM
28 Comments:
On that final day, we will all marvel at God's glory in these things. We are so blind now, but when the curtain is removed, we will see God's intent in all of it - and be silent in awe of God's majesty.
I am reminded of a book I once read, where there was a young noble knight seeking to enter into service for a great and noble king. The knight in his journeys came upon an old wisp of a man who was guarding a well. The old man was already blinded by his great age, and too weak to do much us, but bid the young knight to look into the well and see if he could see the reflection of the kings coat of arms which was beneath the water in the well - if he could see the coat of arms, the water was clear. The young knight looked into the well, and saw clearly the coat of arms - the water was indeed clear.
The old man then explained that he wasn't actually the keeper of the well, but was a young knight just as this young man was, who came upon this well and found the king's coat of arms emblazoned on the bottom of it, and knew that this must be the kings well - and so profound was his desire for that king's glory that he could not in good conscience leave the well and allow that well to fall into disrepair - he determined therefore to keep the well clean until the king sent a man to look after that well.
The young man stayed the night with the old fellow, but in the evening, the old fellow passed away.
As he breathed his last a man was at the door of the little hovel that they were in, and explained that he was a servant of the great king and was come to get the noble knight who had been guarding the well.
The young knight explained that this wasn't he, but was rather a knight who had been guarding it until the king might send his man to guard it.
The man at the door then explained that the old man whom he was referring to was the most noble of all the king's men - that it was for this reason that, unbeknownst to the old man, he had come upon this well - he was a strong and worthy knight - and surely some great service would come to him - he was willing to stand by the king, and die by the king to give his life without hesitation in the great king's service - and it was because of his profound nobility that he was chosen by the king to keep this well pure, that the king reserves such things for only the most noble men, for only the most noble of men can be contented to serve wherever they are.
It was quite a touching story of course, because it was all allegorical to the Christian walk, and ministry. One may well wonder why am I made to suffer thus? But such things are reserved for men whom God has made able to bear, and on that last day, when their story is told, we will see with clarity the glory of it all.
July 20, 2007 11:01 AM
"When we suffer and handle it with grace, we're like walking billboards advertising the positive way God works in the life of someone who suffers." Joni Eareckson Tada
Thank the Lord for those "Walking Bill Boards" who are suffering and still shining for the Lord. Thank you Roger.
July 20, 2007 12:14 PM
Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
1 Corinthaisn 12:26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
I realize that the references to suffering here may refer to other than physical suffering, but I believe that often - if we are mature Christians - Christ is glorified all the more when we suffer physically :
2 Corintians 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
July 20, 2007 12:33 PM
Gayla,
May God bless you and Roger. I am confident that his grace will be sufficient.
July 20, 2007 4:09 PM
Thank you Gayla. Suffering, and the inevitability of it in the Christian’s life, is not a popular topic in today’s church. Part of the reason, I suppose, is that we think that as Christians we either can’t suffer (because Christians aren’t suppose to) or won’t suffer (because suffering is the chastisement God uses to bring back erring believers and of this unlucky few I am not numbered). I think part of the reason for this weak understanding is that we have come to believe that Christians are exempt from suffering because God is our Father and we deserve better. So, much of today’s evangelism swirls around this … “Are you unhappy? Come to Jesus and He will make you happy. Is your marriage a mess? Come to Jesus and He will make you fall in love again. Are you a business failure? Just believe God for a miracle and it will be the fast track to the CEOs office. We are evangelized and taught to expect happiness, success and fulfillment when in actuality the real Christian experience is often one of sadness, rejection and loss. Wasn’t our savior a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief? Oh, should we expect any better. No, but we do.
July 20, 2007 6:05 PM
Gayla,
thank you for sharing this post,
I would say that knowing Roger, and yourself, would be a blessing !
July 21, 2007 5:51 AM
Gayla;
I am sad to hear of the condition of your husband Roger.
I would like you to know that all answers are in Christ Jesus our Lord, and not in the book of Elizabeth Elliot.
Has Roger been to Jesus and asked Him for the healing of that condition?
I know that all who came to Jesus were healed.
Sometime we look at our own inadequacies and tend not to believe that Jesus heals ALL our sickness and diseases, or He might heal other people but not us.
I know that you know the Scripture as good as I do, but sometimes it is not good enough to know the Scripture, it is better to know the author of the Scripture.
There is a time when a person needs to press into the presence of the Lord Jesus and only there the Scripture is fulfilled, where Jesus said “anything you ask (in my name) I will do for you.”
July 21, 2007 7:02 AM
Hi Paul,
Could you explicate for me how your seemingly utilitarian paradigm of Christ is consistent with God's sovereignty. Your paradigm seems more succinct with those that propagate erroneous Word/Faith theology. If I am wrong please help me understand your position more aptly. Thanks.
/Scribe
July 21, 2007 12:11 PM
"I would like you to know that all answers are in Christ Jesus our Lord, and not in the book of Elizabeth Elliot."
Yes, we are highly aware of this.
"as Roger been to Jesus and asked Him for the healing of that condition?"
Actually yes. On a number of occasions, Roger has asked for healing. He's been to the elders, anointed with oil and prayed over. But at this point, it seems that the Lord's answer is 'no.' And that's ok. Roger would gladly take a healing, if the Lord granted it, but he also realizes that it (the condition) comes straight from God's hand, and that this IS in His sovereign plan for Roger's life.
"I know that all who came to Jesus were healed.
Sometime we look at our own inadequacies and tend not to believe that Jesus heals ALL our sickness and diseases, or He might heal other people but not us."
Paul, this isn't true, Scripturally speaking. Sometimes Jesus healed 'many' and sometimes, He healed 'all' who came.
"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian." Luke 4:27
"And He healed many who were ill with various diseases..." Mark 1:34
"for He had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around Him in order to touch Him." Mark 3:10
"And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them." Mark 6:5
Also, Paul's testimony in
2 Cor 12:
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
Of course,we're never told what that 'thorn' is however there is a principal here. And that is, God's grace is sufficient. Many times, Roger has said that he'd rather be afflicted with this disease so that he is continually humbled before God, utterly dependent on Him than be pain free - if that meant not being kept before the Lord.
"I know that you know the Scripture as good as I do, but sometimes it is not good enough to know the Scripture, it is better to know the author of the Scripture."
Paul, thank you for your concern. Roger and I both have been mercifully saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ.
"There is a time when a person needs to press into the presence of the Lord Jesus and only there the Scripture is fulfilled, where Jesus said “anything you ask (in my name) I will do for you.”
I don't even know what to say to this, as you seem to believe that Roger/I don't possess 'enough faith' for him to be healed.
July 21, 2007 12:35 PM
Paul,
I think Gayla's answer here is exceedingly gracious.
I have to agree that there are *many* testimonies of people whose faith is admirable - certainly "enough" - and yet the Lord has chosen - in His complete freedom and all to His own glory - *not* to heal.
Joni Eareckson Tada comes to mind. Any of her books, particularly the earlier writings, speak of how many times she believed the Lord's purpose for her was to heal her, but He didn't. Look at what a great ministry she has - and who knows how many have been "healed" spiritually (many still handicapped physically) by her witness, all from a wheelchair ?
The Lord likewise didn't deliver Betsie Ten Boom or her father from the concentration camp in which they were prisoners along with their well-known sister Corrie. But He delivered them as He would - into His hand. And He allowed Corrie to leave the camp to tell the story and to forgive her captors.
Powerful testimonies of those from whom God never delivered the thorn - such as that which plagued Paul, and when asked to be delivered from it, God in His sovereignty told His servant: "No."
July 21, 2007 1:17 PM
Interestingly timely and well-written post on suffering here:
http://notveryclevername.blogspot.com/
July 21, 2007 1:36 PM
Joni Eareckson Tada comes to mind. Any of her books, particularly the earlier writings, speak of how many times she believed the Lord's purpose for her was to heal her, but He didn't.
OK, Susan...I'll ask again,"Do great minds think alike?'
I was thinking about Joni as I posted my comment (marvelous woman in the Lord)
Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul
July 21, 2007 1:37 PM
Come Blue Collar...let's sing It Is Well together!!! Love that hymn!
July 21, 2007 1:39 PM
I'm humming at I read what you wrote, Scribe.
Amen!
July 21, 2007 3:11 PM
Nobody wants to hear me sing...
July 21, 2007 4:09 PM
After a few cups of your punch, Gayla, no one will care.
Btw, I'm not in any choir either. Singing is *definitely* not one of my gifts. If I sing in the shower, the water dries up.
July 21, 2007 5:12 PM
I am not trying to be smart, rude or inconsiderate.
I want you to know that I love all your posts and comments, especially how you vigorously defend grace and the sovereignty of God etc. I really commend you for that! All of you do an excellent job; I am praising Jesus for that.
Sometimes in our Christian life comes a time when a mere theory a set of Scriptures or a doctrine is just not good enough as in Rogers’s case.
But what Roger needs is the power of God manifested in his body.
Yes it is as you said; it is God who causes a man to be healthy or sick, rich or poor, deaf, dumb, blind, death, life, prosperity and disaster etc. Ex. 4:11 Deut.32:39, 1 Sam.2:6+7 Jsa.45:7 and lots more.
Scribe;
I am not eloquent in speech, but as to the knowledge of God and His sovereignty I am not inferior to anyone.
Susan;
I know the story of the Ten Boom Family, it’s an amazing story.
Gayla;
I hope I am not going to put my big foot in my mouth, so to speak.
I am in fear and trembling before the Lord so that I might not say anything out of place or against the will of the Lord.
Gayla, to be a positive, constructive encouragement in the Lord to your husband Roger you have to look completely in a different way at all the Scriptures you have quoted, and also looking at the Lord Jesus in a different way.
Jesus has to be sovereign and omnipotent in every verse which you have quoted.
So when it says, Jesus healed them all, or all who came to Him were healed. That’s exactly what happened, not one went away sick, all were healed, it happened then and it happens now.
When it says, He healed many! This does not mean He healed many and could not heal some.
When it says, He could not do many miracles except to lay His hands on a few. That means that not many people came to see Jesus because they did not believe and stayed home. It would have been better for them to go to Jesus in order that they might be healed; it was then and is the same today! The Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever.
As to Paul’s thorn in the flesh, many Christians think that the thorn was a sickness.
This is not so!
The Lord Jesus gave Paul a demon to keep him from exalting himself.
Gayla, sometime when a brother tells us the truth we don’t like to hear it! I know.
And what kind of a Father likes to see his children in agony and pain?
And that is supposed to be for His glory.
This type of thinking is just not true.
How can Roger come to Jesus and be healed, if he believes the Lord Jesus wants him to suffer in agony in order to be humbled before God?
This I can not understand! I rather boast in the Lord my God Jesus Christ who has all power available to heal ALL my affliction and sicknesses.
To Roger; Psalm 103 forget not ALL His benefits, who forgives ALL our sins and heals ALL our diseases.
July 22, 2007 8:25 AM
Scribe;
I am not eloquent in speech
Paul,
I have not charged you with ignorance so I doubt my assessment of your comments was captious in nature.
...but as to the knowledge of God and His sovereignty I am not inferior to anyone.
This is immaterial and seems to devolve into an Argumentum ad populum with your deference to a working knowledge God's sovereignty. I fail to see an ideological confluence in what you say about healing and God's sovereignty. Again, I query you...how does your view of healing gel with God's sovereignty--Please answer the question this time, thank you.
July 22, 2007 9:44 AM
Paul, c'mon spit it out. What you're actually saying is Christians (Roger being one) aren't healed due to their own fault! Either they don't have enough faith (define that) OR they have sin in their life OR they're not trusting Jesus the "right way." Or any other number of reasons that put the blame squarely on them and completely remove God's exercising His sovereignty for His own plan and purpose.
This name-it-and-claim-it gospel is false, dangerous and 100% contrary to Scripture - along with the notion that as Christians we are all to live healthy, wealthy and infinitely 'happy.'
If I may ask, where in Scripture does it tell us that Paul's thorn was a demon? As I have read it, it doesn't say.
And just to be clear, I completely understand that it is NOT a matter of Jesus being unable to heal, but rather a matter of His choosing to heal only a few, or 'many.'
Perhaps you'd address Luke 4:27 and give me your thoughts on it:
"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian."
Or maybe the book of Job? Perhaps you'd give us your thoughts on how all that went down. Maybe? I'd love to hear it, along with an answer to Scribe's question.
If I sound a little put out, please forgive me. I have nothing against you personally, Paul, rather the false doctrine to which you adhere.
July 22, 2007 10:45 AM
I have a knee (left) that I can not bend due to internal scaring from surguries. A minister anointed me with oil and prayed for healing. No healing took place. I still can't bend the knee. He shrugged his shoulders and told me that it was my lack of faith that kept my knee from being healed. Now I shrug my shoulders at those who preach such garbage. My patience will wear thin if somebody keeps up with the "Name it, Claim it" doctrine here. Believe me, you won't like me when I get mad. Be warned!
July 22, 2007 11:17 AM
Sometimes in our Christian life comes a time when a mere theory a set of Scriptures or a doctrine is just not good enough as in Rogers’s case.
Paul, what you are suggesting is that Gayla and/or Roger put doctrine ahead of the truth in Scripture.
But what Roger needs is the power of God manifested in his body.
How do you know it isn’t?
Why do you judge the power of God by the state of one’s physical health?
Gayla, to be a positive, constructive encouragement in the Lord to your husband Roger you have to look completely in a different way at all the Scriptures you have quoted, and also looking at the Lord Jesus in a different way.
It’s quite difficult to say this to someone you’ve never met - how he or she should be with his/her spouse or to understand exactly how that person looks at (or walks with) Jesus.
This is not so!
The Lord Jesus gave Paul a demon to keep him from exalting himself.
Like Gayla said, I don’t see this anywhere in Scripture. In fact, I see Jesus saying to the Pharisees when the latter suggested that Jesus had a demon, that a house divided among itself cannot stand. So I don’t believe Jesus ever gave anyone a demon. To the contrary, He cast them out.
And what kind of a Father likes to see his children in agony and pain?
Scripture doesn’t say that God enjoys it, but it does say that we are to share in Christ’s glory, provided we share in His suffering.
And that is supposed to be for His glory.
This type of thinking is just not true.
It’s all for His glory – vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, Pharoah raised up and resisting God, evil for its own day, He created the good, the bad, and the ugly all for His glory. It’s written from Genesis through Revelation. Remember Lazarus? He physically died – why? That the glory of God to be shown.
Paul, your thinking reminds me of Jesus’ words in Luke 13:4-5:
“Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
The doctrine you suggests places the faith -or lack thereof - of the people as responsible for their physical health or suffering, and that limits God’s sovereignty.
Romans 9:11-16 contradicts what you assert:
Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad --in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls -- she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
July 22, 2007 4:18 PM
Thank you, Susan. :)
July 22, 2007 4:33 PM
What are we to make of passages like these:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ. But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer; 2 Cor 1:3-6
and
...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death. Phil 3:10
or
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren Heb 2:10-11
and
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 1 Pet 4:12-16
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:2-4
and
In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 1:6-7
I realize this is long, but I'm not going to apologize for citing Scripture, as it is Truth and it is applicable to our lives as believers. If we cannot trust God in His word, then we are doomed.
Paul, if there is any, I mean any Scripture passages that you can provide which show that Christians are to live in health, to live trial-free lives, to be suffer-free, please I invite you to share it.
July 22, 2007 5:01 PM
Oh, ok I see. Paul, I just read your comment - among many on the 'Jesus Healed All the Sick' post at the Puritan Belief site - wherein you state:
"Anyone who has received from the Lord Jesus a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God can NOT say that there are three persons in God."
So I see that we're not even on the same playing field.
July 22, 2007 5:51 PM
Have we a modalist on our hands?
July 22, 2007 7:26 PM
Or what's infinitely worse...a unitarian?
July 22, 2007 7:28 PM
Paul,
I went to your site and you quoted this on your blog .."Jesus healed all the Sick"....
Have you ever wondered why churches have so called Christians who suffer deep depression and all kind of mental problems and sicknesses etc.?
They say that God heals, but they send there mentally sick to the mental institution. Where is their God??
There are many professing Christians who believe in God in mental institutions.
Which god do you think they have asked to heal them??
Perhaps they believe the same as you, that their misery is to the glory of god.
The Catholic Church is exactly the same.
My God has thrown her on a bed of sickness including your churches because you believe in the same god as the Catholic Church.
If you wonder why your god can not heal the sick in your midst, because you believe in the same god as the Antichrist the Pope, his gods are three persons just like yours.
All the sick people among you are a testimony against you that you believe in a false god who can not heal the sick.
The God of the Bible healed ALL who came to Him!
Yes I know, you may think its Trinity bashing! But who else is going to tell you the truth?
If you do not renounce this wicked Trinity doctrine, you may end up the same as them.
Jesus Christ is not impressed with a form of godliness, but He seeks a heart who is fully His.
If this is what your believe Paul...the truth is not in you...
Cristina
July 22, 2007 11:07 PM
1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:6 This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1 John 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
1 John 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
1 John 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
Three, not one.
Son - not the same person as God.
Three distinct persons.
July 23, 2007 8:42 AM
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