Please Read This Post
Yes, do check this one out... http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2007/11/romans-7-by-charles-leiter.html
Let me know what you think.
Blessings,
Mark
Labels: Romans Seven
posted by mark pierson at 8:00 AM
Tuesday, April 08, 2008
Let me know what you think.
Blessings,
Mark
12 Comments:
Paul says, "I don't do what I want, but sin that dwells in me causes me to do what I want not, even when i do good, evil is there. FOR I DELIGHT IN THE LAW OF GOD after the inward man. But I see another law in my members warring against my mind. O wretch that I am, who can deliver me from this body of death? Jesus Christ, who I am crucified with, and now lives in me!
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God: but with the flesh [I myself] the law of sin."
First of all to delight in the Law in the inward man, is a quickened spirit, and a heart of flesh.
I agree with Luther on this passage. "No. But he is at one and the same time a sinner and a righteous person (simul iustus et peccator)." -Luther
Also:
“The saints in being righteous are at the same time sinners; they are righteous because they believe in Christ whose righteousness covers them and is imputed to them, but they are sinners because they do not fulfill the law and are not without sinful desires. They are like sick people in the care of a physician: they are really sick, but healthy only in the hope and insofar as they begin to be better, healed, i.e., they will become healthy. Nothing can harm them so much as the presumption that they are in fact healthy, for it will cause a bad relapse“
-Martin Luther
April 08, 2008 9:17 AM
Mark,
I think this is the correct view even though it runs counter to the consensus of most of the clergy in my denomination. It is a message of victory instead of woe is me.
It does not lessen the gross error of Zane Hodges et. al. and in fact strengthens the case against the so-called free grace theology proponents.
April 08, 2008 9:24 AM
A couple years ago I was talking with a friend after church about this. I had already embraced the ideas brought forth in this post, this being a victory chapter, not a woe chapter. Suddenly my friend got very heated. I had to walk away.
April 08, 2008 10:06 AM
I don't think it is a woe as me teaching, but simply knowing one's limited in serving Christ in the perfection that God calls us to, which is to live exactly as Christ.
I strive to be conformed into Christ's image in His grace, and yet I know that the sin in my members wants it's own way, it's pride, lust, and self-ceneteredness, contends with my heart after Christ.
I am a worm, and a wretch, and yet i am as righteous as shall ever be in y justification in Christ's blood! I see my victory, and yet I see my condemnation, but when my heart condemns me, God is greater than my heart, and I can take refuge in His love and grace, and in the Cross, where Jesus bore, not in part, but the whole of my sin.
I understand the teaching that says we are no longer sinners, and Paul was not speaking of himself in the quickened spiritual state.
Douglas Moo also teaches this interpretation of Romans 7. And a very good friend of mine, a true scholar of God's word, and a Bible College prof, takes Moo's side, and we disagree and may argue, but we don't become heated.
Sorry to hear that Mark.
I guess the fact that Paul says we delights in God'a Law nails it down for me in this chapter.
And other says of Paul, such as he says, near the end of his faith-fight, "I am the chief of sinners", convince me that Paul thought of himself as a righteous sinner, saved by grace alone.
April 08, 2008 11:06 AM
I think Paul is trying to contrast approaching God as a regenerated person that is being led by the Holy Spirit verses approaching God as a law-keeper being led by one’s own self…. The flesh vs. the Spirit….. Paul pre-conversion vs. Paul post-conversion….. This does not mean perfection as Don points out, but it does mean Spirit led freedom and victory. 1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Note that John says everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. This seems to leave no room for a defeated non-overcoming Christian. It also leaves no room for a free grace carnal Christian.
April 08, 2008 3:23 PM
"it does mean Spirit led freedom and victory."
Amen, by His grace and power.
"The just shall live by faith". May the Lord graciously continue to strengthen my muster-seed faith, and help my unbelief; for His glory. Amen.
April 08, 2008 3:32 PM
jazzycat, thank you for your question on the Mississippi Atheist blog. I visit churches to gain perspective into what goes on inside the churches in our state. I am critical of religion, but it is not fair for me to be critical unless I walk into church and at least try to experience the religion that so many follow. I want these accounts to do two things: to provide a perspective to non-believers on the state of religion inside of Mississippi and to provide a perspective to Christians on how they are seen by non-believers. Thanks for coming to the website and I hope you will continue to read my future articles on church visits.
April 09, 2008 1:36 AM
Hi brothers, I've put 3 excellent Tim Sermons up on our website (PuritanFellowship)last night.
quote from link:
"The language of the man of Romans 7, is not a man who occasionally sins, or a man growing in Holiness with leftover sins, but rather, a man in complete bondage to, practicing a lifestyle of sin. It is the man, 1 John says "is of the devil". This is clearly Paul pre-conversation. What often throws people is when Paul says "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man" people presume that this must refer to a saved person as otherwise they would have no regard for God's law. But Paul, before he was saved, was a Jew and a 'Pharisee of Pharisee" and so of course he delighted and took pride in the Law of God, but in his flesh he was still serving and in bondage to sin."
A Christian should not be living defeated and in bondage to sin like the Romans 7 man, and if he is then there is every indication that he or she is lost. Here Tim Conway delivers three life transforming sermons on Romans 7, and shows that if you're a believer then, as Rom 6:14 says, "sin shall not have dominion over you":
3 Tim Conway Rom 7 Sermons on link
1-The Overlooked Context of the Romans 7 Man - 51 min
2-Abusing Romans 7: A Wrong View of the Christian Life - 50 min
3-The Dangerous Defeatist Mentality of Misreading Romans 7 - 43 min
April 09, 2008 5:56 AM
Puritan, WELCOME!!!
Thanks so very much for your visit, and I agree with your take on Romans 7.
Mark
April 09, 2008 7:33 AM
If I do what I don't want to, say lust after another woman, then though I long to be good according to the Law, sinful desire in me takes me the other way.
For to "will" to obey the Law of God is in me, but how do I obey God in this fleshy body of death?
I long to obey Christ, but I disobey Him, and my sinful pride rises against my will.
And when I do good, which is what I long to do, I find my flesh is still right here with me; "evil is present with me".
For I delight and rejoice with myself, and feel satisfaction in the Law of God, after my inward man, my true heart. "For "though our outward man perish, yet our inward is renewed day by day."
And then there are those who are false, "which come in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are hungry wolves".
So I thank God that my inward man, my mind, and I myself serve this Law that I delight in, and yet with the flesh I myself serve the law of sin.
So I will walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh, for these are contrary. And by the grace of God I will "keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway".
Thanks for the study Mark. It's a challenge, and I shall be looking into this view a bit more with my pastor.
Iron surely sharpens iron, especially the spiritual iron brothers sharpen one another with.
April 09, 2008 8:40 AM
Puritan,
I would also echo Mark's welcome and agreement on Roman's 7.
April 09, 2008 9:18 AM
Oliver (Mississippi Atheist),
Since religion is man's response to God, imagined god's, and other metaphysical things, I am also critical of false religions and false prophets.
Rather than man's response to God (religion) perhaps you should embark on a study of theology, which is a study of God. By definition atheism is based on faith and couple of posts below point this out. Since atheism is based on faith, I suppose it is a religion of sorts.
While you are welcome here to discuss the subjects of the posts. However, my Jazzycat 2 blog is perhaps a better place to discuss and learn about theology and religion from a Mississippi Christian. I would encourage you to suit up and bring your objections there, as you visit churches and find comments and practices to criticize. Perhaps I can help shed some light on the things you witness and find objectionable and that you write about on your blog.
April 09, 2008 9:45 AM
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