Okay, Alvin and Gary McNees
The following was a post from my blog way back when...
Tuesday, April 11, 2006Spurgeon on Assurance "The Holy Spirit, who enabled me to believe, gave me peace through believing. I felt as sure that I was forgiven as before I felt sure of condemnation. I had been certain of my condemnation because the Word of God declared it, and my conscience bore witness to it, but when the Lord justified me, I was equally certain by the same witness. The Word of the Lord in scripture saith, "He that believeth on Him is not condemned," and my conscience bore witness that I believed, and that God in pardoning me was just. Thus I had the witness of the Holy Spirit and also my own conscience, and these two agreed in one."
Taken From C.H.Spurgeon Autobiography: Vol.1 "The Early Years" page 92
In this same paragraph Spurgeon goes on to put down the teachings of a certain Dr. Johnson who held to the idea that no man could have assurance of faith. Spurgeon said that such a man was no reliable judge of theology. He added that Dr. Johnson should have studied his Bible a little more, and have a little more enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, then he too would have come to know his own pardon. I whole heartedly agree!
alvin said...
Hi Mark I also want God's blessings for you, and what I mean by that is that you would come to the knowledge of the truth. Just that short quote you gave by Spurgeon shows that he was deceived in thinking that someone could be saved without knowing they were. If Spurgeon was saved it was in spite of Calvinism. I have read he did not preach consistent Calvinism but was still married to it. God is not obligated to ones who believe biblical language even if they are sincere. As I brought up Max Locado who is dearly loved by many people but has bought into a lie. It's only when we believe biblical truth that God is obligated to keep His promise. Calvinism is a man-made system which makes God out to make "Horrible Decrees" which is neither consistent with His love for all people and His provision for all people in giving a sincere call for anyone who desires to take of the water of life freely and live! Mark you do not believe that God would really give a gift of eternal life without getting back some kind of return in this life. That is what Calvinism is all about "works" that MUST happen if one is truly saved. The Scriptures show clearly that ones were taken home early who were making a mockery out of discipleship either by getting drunk and the Lord's table or lying to the Holy Spirit. I lived pretty much for myself from age 12 to age 38 and you would have had a hard time by my works proving I was saved. Of course God let me do it my way if that's what I wanted to do by learning the hard way that His way was best. I work with a Mormon who would make most Christians look bad. He treats everyone kindly and is just a great guy but rejects a free gift and is working his way to heaven. Anyone looking at his life would think for sure he is saved by his fruit . . . .he looks just like a Calvinist little lamb. I don't see any difference they are both deceived in thinking they can't just take the water of life freely but theirs MORE to it and it's called WORKS. Mark if you believed what we are saying here you would not be fighting against it would you? So your not fooling anyone but yourself. The sufficient proposition we are putting forth here is that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. And the word believe means just that, to believe Jesus is stating the truth in a verse like John 3:16. No word games or pouring the water down ones throat. alvin
June 10, 2009 2:24 PM
Gary said...
Hi Alvin:I started to respond to Mark twice and twice I decided that I didn't have the right thing to say.You are perceptive. Lets see what if any response we get from Mark.If he is ANY kind of Calvinist he will reject what you said.Gary McNees
June 10, 2009 3:41 PM
Labels: Alvin and Gary
posted by mark pierson at 7:27 AM
38 Comments:
Alvin - "Just that short quote you gave by Spurgeon shows that he was deceived in thinking that someone could be saved without knowing they were."
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You're gonna have to explain yourself here, or is this one of those things that only the GES mind can see?
June 11, 2009 7:40 AM
Alvin - "It's only when we believe biblical truth that God is obligated to keep His promise."
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"When we...God is obligated". Wow! Sorry, as one reads the Bible they see that salvation is ALL of God. A consideration of what the Bible teaches on the New Covenant would reveal that it is based on the "I will[s]" of God; not "if you will then I will" like we see in His dealings with Israel in the Old Testament. It includes true conversion. True conversion meaning regeneration which results in a reorientation of desires from self to the claims of Christ on one's life.
June 11, 2009 7:55 AM
Alvin - "Calvinism is a man-made system which makes God out to make "Horrible Decrees" which is neither consistent with His love for all people and His provision for all people in giving a sincere call for anyone who desires to take of the water of life freely and live!"
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As we saw in the last post the GES stands in a man-made system too.
And about the "horrible decree" - It IS His universe. Who are YOU to reply against God? Does not the potter have power over the clay? Esau, Pharaoh, Judas - they all had their place in God's plan.
June 11, 2009 8:09 AM
Alvin - "Mark you do not believe that God would really give a gift of eternal life without getting back some kind of return in this life."
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Eternal life IS a free gift.
Eternal life IS knowing God and His Christ. Knowing God results in desiring to walk in His ways.
Eternal life has the experience of rivers of living water flowing out of the heart.
Eternal life involves being made a slave of God and of righteousness. Where once one was a slave of sin now there is glorious freedom to serve God.
Eternal life involves being conveyed into the kingdom of God's Son - ruled by Him from His Word through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
June 11, 2009 8:21 AM
Alvin - "That is what Calvinism is all about "works" that MUST happen if one is truly saved."
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Correction. They WILL happen. Remember that little thing called "regeneration". It ALWAYS results in conversion. He has brought us forth to be "epistles of Christ", written by the Spirit of God on our hearts. The world is able to read about Christ while looking at us. Don't forget that we are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, THAT WE MAY PROCLAIM THE PRAISES OF HIM WHO CALLED US OUT OF DARKNESS INTO HIS MARVELOUS LIGHT.
June 11, 2009 8:36 AM
About your Morman friend: one BIG difference - Faith alone in Christ alone. A life of devotion to Christ and His Word FLOWS from that faith.
June 11, 2009 8:40 AM
Alvin - " And the word believe means just that, to believe Jesus is stating the truth in a verse like John 3:16."
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I love this. You all point to Hebrews 11:1 for your defintion of faith. But then you arbitrarily break off the defintion there. If we go on in that chapter we learn that faith leads to obedience and final perseverence. But of course consideration of the whole chapter would prove fatal to YOUR man-made system.
June 11, 2009 8:46 AM
Gary McNees, feel free to interact.
June 11, 2009 8:47 AM
Hebrews describes Gary much better than I ever could in Heb. 5:11-14:
About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
When it comes to theology, Alvin is a one trick pony. Alvin, read on and discover the richness of Gods mercy and salvation, which includes much more than drinking the free water.
June 11, 2009 8:51 AM
My mistake, I mostly meant Alvin, but Gary might take note as well....
June 11, 2009 8:52 AM
I just left the following at Antonio's blog -
Antonio, Hi!
To all -
I invite you to my BlueCollar blog to continue the discussion from Antonio's previous post, the one that ended at some 640 comments.
Mark Pierson
June 11, 2009 10:04 AM
June 11, 2009 1:06 PM
And this was Alvin's response -
alvin said...
Hey dar "BAD" you ain't gone an went somewhere have yah? I a be a sitt'n right here on ole' Ruthy wait'n fur da "parousia" . . . .dat be da begin'n of da 2 coming:~} check it out Bruder Zane done pointed us to da clue (Matthew 24:3,27,37,39).
Me be a tink'n Bruder Zane he have the childlike verses right den he be right on da mark on da coming....heeheeeeeee
All these ones with the big ideas but don't believe John 3:16 I don't be given them the time of day . . .why waste my time when they don't even have the babe verses right:(
Bruder Gary we be a wait'n an a be look'n forward ta float'n on one of dem clouds . . . .heeheeeeee
For you who be corn-fused just be a believe'n John 3:16 an yah gonna go too:~}
but ole' Ugly would be lov'n ta try out one of dem chariot's of fire with Ruthy pull'n at da reigns~>~>~>~>heeheeeee maybe ole Easy be a race'n ta heaven but Ruthy be hav'n a set of wings....heeheeee
Ugly was a sitt'n right here on dis spot . . . . .Getty-up Ruthy yah Steed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ugly will yah sing me a song . . . .why you know I will Ruthy . . .further along we'll know all about it . . . .cheer up my sister . . .live in the sunshine . . .we'll understand it all bye~and~bye:~}
June 11, 2009 9:29 PM
June 12, 2009 8:06 AM
From the free grace theology Bible:
Zane 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave the prophet Zane Hodges to interpret John 3:16 so that an entire theology could be built on one verse through reading doctrines into the verse
Zane 1:1 The book Zane trumps all Bible verses that condradict the book of Zane
Wow! I think I get it now!
June 12, 2009 9:46 AM
Wayne,
I suppose that when you are the first generation to hold to an novel theological system - as Gary McNees admits Zane Hodges' system is seen NOWHERE else in history - you must deal with all the many thrashings your new system will take from many older, time-proven and better thought-out systems. It really must be rough being pioniers of a new, novel system.
June 12, 2009 10:51 AM
Please repeat after me -
Zane, Zane, Zane, Zane, Zane, Zane... ;-)
June 12, 2009 1:11 PM
Mark,
So true and yet we are the ones who supposedly follow a man made system. It seems they can't go but three or four sentences before they appeal to what Zane said about something.
My challenge has gone unanswered so far. THE CHALLENGE: Show me a single time in all of my internet comments or blog writings where I have appealed to John Calvin or anyone else as a source to back up a view........
June 12, 2009 3:14 PM
hey Mark,
how ya doing!
hey there JazzyCat!
June 12, 2009 10:00 PM
Mark Said:
And about the "horrible decree" - It IS His universe. Who are YOU to reply against God? Does not the potter have power over the clay? Esau, Pharaoh, Judas - they all had their place in God's plan.
Guess who is blaspheming God? That you cannot even see what you are doing speaks volumes.
We are not "replying against God." You are making God out to be infinitely worse than Satan, for Satan is but a finite creature who wills evil, but you represent that the God WHO IS LOVE creates the vast majority of His creatures to damn them in the eternal flames of Hell. This God is infinite in power, and hence according to you and your ilk is infinitely evil. These innumerable number of people are created to be damned, created such that they are "unable" to believe. And even if they could, Christ did not die for them. Such doctrine is infinitely worse than any ever made up by the vilest atheist or demon.
Gary McNees
June 12, 2009 10:04 PM
So Gary,
I see your response is ALL of emotion and NO exegetical consideration of Romans chapter 9. If you are willing to discuss Romans 9 with me let me know by email and I'll set up a post for us to have the discussion.
Mark Pierson
June 12, 2009 11:55 PM
And Gary,
in His creation do you mean to tell me that in your human exalting system that God didn't know some of the very individuals that He had created would end up in hell? Why then did He go on to create them in the first place? And do you not acknowledge that ALL who end up there do so by choice?
June 13, 2009 8:33 AM
My doctrinal views have been explained many times and I find it very disingenuous that you would insist on describing them in such a grossly inaccurate way. For example: your view of limited atonement is absurd. This serves no useful purpose and I get quite tired of explaining things over and over….
If you have sincerely gotten it that wrong, you might check out the last two series’ on my site under photo devotionals for my true doctrinal views on salvation and the so-called TULIP doctrines.
As Mark has alluded to, it is amazing how many doctrinal comments you make without a single reference to Scriptural passages, and I do not consider “Zane said” as a reference to Scripture. Mark and I both would love to explore Biblical passages with you without relying on what Zane Hodges or any other human being dead or alive thinks. We could let Scripture speak and discuss it without constructing false straw men. We are willing.
June 13, 2009 8:37 AM
mark pierson said...
"Wayne,
I suppose that when you are the first generation to hold to an novel theological system - as Gary McNees admits Zane Hodges' system is seen NOWHERE else in history - you must deal with all the many thrashings your new system will take from many older, time-proven and better thought-out systems. It really must be rough being pioniers of a new, novel system.
June 12, 2009 10:51 AM"
gkm: Actually, Zane was NOT the first person in history to teach what he teaches.
gkm: Jesus was. It is really amazing that you all hunt for an enunciation of the "gospel," when the gospel was first preached by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He preached it all along, it is just that you all have been brainwashed by Augustine, (the father of Roman Catholicism), his student, Calvin (who said that everything he taught he could use the writings of Augustine verbatim.)
Gkm: Zane Hodges taught John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me (the Lord Jesus Christ) hath everlasting life."
gkm: This all you Calvinists deny and invert to your own destruction!
Gkm: Here is what you would have Christ to say: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hath everlasting life believeth on me (the Lord Jesus Christ)."
gkm: This is a precise statement of Calvinism. First regeneration, first eternal life, and as a RESULT faith! The biggest lie from hell ever.
Gkm: You simply do not believe what God says.
Gary McNees
June 13, 2009 9:45 AM
"it is just that you all have been brainwashed by Augustine, (the father of Roman Catholicism), his student, Calvin (who said that everything he taught he could use the writings of Augustine verbatim.)"
LOLOLOLOLOLOL Uhm ok....for some, ignorance learned from Dave Hunt is bliss. However,I am sure you are better than the, well, some would call it the historical stupidity of Hunt, so I am wondering if you could possibly explain the context of Augustine who actually held very little in common with Roman Catholicism (you do know how he differed, right?), and the context of Calvin's statement. Can you do that dude? I think we both know you can't. Just about all you can do is give a second hand Warfield quote taken out of total context by Hunt. In other words, dude,you are happy and blinded in your ignorance.
"Gkm: Zane Hodges taught John 6:47..."
You do know that Zane wasn't crucified and rose again for you, right? That he wasn't God -- you know this, right? I mean, I went to three FG friendly blogs and counted how many times Hodges name was mentioned over the name of Christ. It was like 3 to 1 in favor of Hodges. You guys sure do love you some Zane! You do know he isn't God, right -- that it isn't believe in Zane first and Jesus second, right?
June 13, 2009 11:17 AM
"gkm: This is a precise statement of Calvinism. First regeneration, first eternal life, and as a RESULT faith! The biggest lie from hell ever."
You do know that in standard (albeit scholostic) Reformed theology, when it says regeneration then faith,it is talking logical, not temperal? You know that, right? Regeneration and faith occure at the same time. Standard Reformed(albeit scholostic) theology affirms that in the temperal. If you are going to call it a lie try to get the "lie" right. Thank you
June 13, 2009 12:26 PM
Gojira,
Great to hear from you.
Gary,
John 6:47 is a great verse that teaches a great truth. Faith in Jesus Christ guarantees eternal life to all who believe. Yet you state that we as Calvinists deny this truth. We don’t deny it. We celebrate and thank God for it. Can you please show me how this verse refutes sovereign election? Also, can you show me how this verse proves that believers may never show discipleship or works? This verse is silent on those two issues. It neither proves nor disproves either view. You must look elsewhere to prove your view that man is not so fallen that he cannot come to faith apart from divine intervention, and I must look elsewhere to prove he is unable to come without God’s intervening grace. Please address this point without making all the false accusations about what I believe.
Wayne
June 13, 2009 2:58 PM
Gojira said:
"gkm: This is a precise statement of Calvinism. First regeneration, first eternal life, and as a RESULT faith! The biggest lie from hell ever."
Gojira: You do know that in standard (albeit scholostic) Reformed theology, when it says regeneration then faith,it is talking logical, not temperal? You know that, right? Regeneration and faith occure at the same time. Standard Reformed(albeit scholostic) theology affirms that in the temperal. If you are going to call it a lie try to get the "lie" right. Thank you
Gkm: Of course I know it is logical. You are an idiot. I have Warfield, Calvin, Hodge (both of them), Pink, Gill, Grudem, Buswell, Sproul (both of them), MacArthur, Kendall, Bell, of course Calvin (all of his works,) Owen, Aquinas, Augustine, Charnock, Haldane, Bavnick, Lloyd-Jones, Reymond, Erickson, and a host more. I have not memorized them all, but I do know exactly what you believe and teach IF you are 5-point TULIP Calvinists.
Gkm: Stop trying to be smart, you are not. You do know what the word THROUGH means, don't you? Well, of course you don't. Because, if you did you'd never swallow the lie of Calvinism. That eternal life is THROUGH faith means that logically FAITH precedes eternal life. Your system is bankrupt, it is false through and through. As I said the real founder of your religion was Augustine!
Gkm: Augustine departed from scripture most everywhere, especially on soteriology.
Gkm: If you ever want to discuss SCRIPTURE then get with it, but all these ASSERTIONS of Calvinism without any scriptural support are idiotic.
Gary McNees
June 13, 2009 3:03 PM
Gojira said:
gkm: "it is just that you all have been brainwashed by Augustine, (the father of Roman Catholicism), his student, Calvin (who said that everything he taught he could use the writings of Augustine verbatim.)"
Gojira: LOLOLOLOLOLOL Uhm ok....for some, ignorance learned from Dave Hunt is bliss.
Gkm: Very funny! I learned all the ignorance of Calvinism from the masters of Calvinism.
Gojira: However,I am sure you are better than the, well, some would call it the historical stupidity of Hunt, so I am wondering if you could possibly explain the context of Augustine who actually held very little in common with Roman Catholicism (you do know how he differed, right?), and the context of Calvin's statement.
gkm: do it yourself! Augustine was the Roman Catholic supreme! Utter foolishness. Infant baptism regeneration, and all the rest of gross errors! Why don't you know how much error Augustine taught? You should, you are believing most of his lies.
Gojira: Can you do that dude? I think we both know you can't.
Gkm: Sure I can. But why should I waste my time? Remember about casting your pearls before swine?
Gojira: Just about all you can do is give a second hand Warfield quote taken out of total context by Hunt. In other words, dude,you are happy and blinded in your ignorance.
Gkm: When you've read all the books I cited in a prior post, let me know. When you prove that you are not an idiot, I'll see it by what you write. So far, everything you've said is vacuous.
"Gkm: Zane Hodges taught John 6:47..."
You do know that Zane wasn't crucified and rose again for you, right? That he wasn't God -- you know this, right? I mean, I went to three FG friendly blogs and counted how many times Hodges name was mentioned over the name of Christ. It was like 3 to 1 in favor of Hodges. You guys sure do love you some Zane! You do know he isn't God, right -- that it isn't believe in Zane first and Jesus second, right?
Gkm: You blaspheme God with your foul religion. Everything unique in Calvinism is devilish. I can prove it directly from the Bible, not from Zane Hodges.
Gkm: Everything God says about His universal love for mankind, Calvinism denies! The crude eisegesis that Calvinism performs on John 3:16; Isa. 53; I Tim 2:4; I John 2:2; John 1:29; John 16:8; Rom. 9:21; and well just about every other verse in the Bible which has to do with soteriology is really amazing.
Gkm: by the way for those reading this blog, if I don't answer it is not because I don't have the answer. For those of you deceived by Calvinism read the book, "The Other Side of Calvinism" by Vance, and MAYBE if you really want to know the truth, the Lord will open your blind eyes.
Gary McNees
June 13, 2009 3:20 PM
jazzycat said:
Gary,
John 6:47 is a great verse that teaches a great truth. Faith in Jesus Christ guarantees eternal life to all who believe. Yet you state that we as Calvinists deny this truth. We don’t deny it. We celebrate and thank God for it.
Gkm: I deny that you believe it. Define the word "believe."
Jazzycat: Can you please show me how this verse refutes sovereign election?
Gkm: The words you use have special meaning to Calvinists. The doctrine of " sovereign election" as it is defined by Calvinists contradicts scripture, hundreds of passages, and you know it.
Jazzycat: Also, can you show me how this verse proves that believers may never show discipleship or works?
Gkm: No, I can't. It doesn't. In fact no verse does. More mudslinging and strawmen.
Jazzycat: This verse is silent on those two issues. It neither proves nor disproves either view.
Gkm: Either view??? What views are you referring to? You mean the Calvinist view that God hates most of His creatures, created them to be damned, caused them to be born totally depraved so that they are unable to believe, and further made no provision for their salvation? That view? (Don't bother trying to deny this. I've read the books written by Calvinists about "the LOVE of God for all." Pardon my French, but they ALL are a bunch of bs. The MOST important LOVE is saving love. God can "love" all mankind all you want to say, but what you teach is that HE DOES NOT LOVE ALL MANKIND SAVINGLY! He makes no provision for their salvation! Also, I've read the absurd arguments of Calvinists, which try to turn this argument on it head, so don't bother stating them. God says HE would have ALL MEN SAVED, and you and all Calvinists call HIM a liar!
Jazzycat: You must look elsewhere to prove your view that man is not so fallen that he cannot come to faith apart from divine intervention, and I must look elsewhere to prove he is unable to come without God’s intervening grace. Please address this point without making all the false accusations about what I believe.
Gkm: I prefaced all this stating that what I am refuting is 5 point TULIP Calvinism. If your soteriology is not subsumed by the Westminster Confession of Faith, then tell me. First, I deny that man can come to faith without God drawing him. (First lie.) Next, I don't deny that man not is able to come to Christ without God's intervening grace. (Second lie.)
Gkm: So, Wayne, you have missed the mark on every point. Want to try again?
Wayne
June 13, 2009 3:38 PM
Gkm: Of course I know it is logical. You are an idiot. I have Warfield, Calvin, Hodge (both of them), Pink, Gill, Grudem, Buswell, Sproul (both of them), MacArthur, Kendall, Bell, of course Calvin (all of his works,) Owen, Aquinas, Augustine, Charnock, Haldane, Bavnick, Lloyd-Jones, Reymond, Erickson, and a host more. I have not memorized them all, but I do know exactly what you believe and teach IF you are 5-point TULIP Calvinists.
Alrighty then! Personally, I think you are telling a fat lie. But ok please explain the Reformed position on regeneration, both theologically and historically. I am sure you are fully able, since you are so well read.
********
"You are an idiot."
I would have expected more from someone who follows Zane.
*********
"You do know what the word THROUGH means, don't you?"
That salvation is by grace through faith no one disagrees with. I would have thought you would have known that -- sheesh, and you call me an idiot! WOW!
********
"Gkm: Augustine departed from scripture most everywhere, especially on soteriology."
By your statements so far you haven't even demonstrated your previous accusations. Of course I am sure you have actually read more than a page about him to know that he supported everything he wrote from the scriptures, even those things Catholics disagree with him about.Dude you seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that were Augustine alive today with the beliefs he held he would be condemned by the Catholic church (lololol his views on Mary especially, but here I am saying this to a guy who treats Zane like a god! LOLOLOL Oh the irony!!!!! Regardless, since you have read him you can easily point out his divergent points. Oh man I am sorry, I forgot, you couldn't demonstrate that earlier from his writings.) But yeah we can just take your word for it.
*********
"Gkm: If you ever want to discuss SCRIPTURE then get with it, but all these ASSERTIONS of Calvinism without any scriptural support are idiotic."
You like that word idiot/idiotic. Hey at least you can use it in a sentence. Ok Rev. 12:9 states that Satan deceives the whole world. Does world there mean everyone on the planet?
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Gkm: You blaspheme God with your foul religion.
now are you talking about the Mighty God who is, or your god Zane? Regardless, you gave some scripture and asserted that Calvinists get those wrong yet didn't demonstrate their "true" meaning -- and you want to call me an idiot?
************
Hmmmmmm you wrote to Jazzy:
"Pardon my French, but they ALL are a bunch of bs."
What other cuss words do you employ or would have go through our minds? Did you learn that from Zane too? Regardless, I am sure he is very happy with your service to him.
June 13, 2009 6:26 PM
Hmmmmmm Gary, you say: "Augustine was the Roman Catholic supreme!" Yet in responds to the question if you could say where he differed from Roman Catholicism you stated: "Sure I can." LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL First you say he was RC supreme, and then you say you can point out where he differed! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Which is it? Was he the good little Catholic you claim, or was he different, which you also claim you can show (that is, lolololol, had you not wanted to waste your time)? You are aware that you just gave two contradictory statements, though, right? But hey here I am writing to someone who gives the appearance of holding the same view of human ability that Rome does. You would have served momma Rome well had you lived then. But yeah Gary, I know, I am an idiot. ;-)
June 13, 2009 6:57 PM
Gojira,
Great to hear from you.
**********
Hi Wayne!
June 13, 2009 6:58 PM
Gary,
I came to the Doctrines of Grace wholly independent of the writings of Calvin or Agustine, or anybody else for that matter. It started with Romans 8-9, just the plain reading of those chapters. From what I see you are pretty weak in the scriptures. I challenge you to go without appealing to extra-biblical writings to defend your position. I challenge you to go without quoting the works of other men to defend your anti-Calvinist position. I'll do the same in defense of the Doctrines of Grace. Are you up for it? Do you have the courage?
June 13, 2009 7:35 PM
Hi Wayne.
Notice Gary's cotradictory statemets:
"The MOST important LOVE is saving love. God can "love" all mankind all you want to say, but what you teach is that HE DOES NOT LOVE ALL MANKIND SAVINGLY! He makes no provision for their salvation!"
Notice he goes from absolute to provisionary. Provisionary saves no one, it only creates a possibility for the person. Yet he says that love saves. That means, I would take it, that love saves. Perhaps to escape universalism he goes from absolute to provision where no one is actually saved (albeit they do have the possibility of being saved if they believe) In other words, his view of the love of God is contradictory because in the end who he calls God only makes it possible in a provisionary way, stopping short of saving anyone.
June 13, 2009 9:07 PM
Gojira has left a new comment on the post "Okay, Alvin and Gary McNees":
Gkm: Of course I know it is logical. You are an idiot. I have Warfield, Calvin, Hodge (both of them), Pink, Gill, Grudem, Buswell, Sproul (both of them), MacArthur, Kendall, Bell, of course Calvin (all of his works,) Owen, Aquinas, Augustine, Charnock, Haldane, Bavnick, Lloyd-Jones, Reymond, Erickson, and a host more. I have not memorized them all, but I do know exactly what you believe and teach IF you are 5-point TULIP Calvinists.
Alrighty then! Personally, I think you are telling a fat lie.
gkm: This is the end.
Since you call me a liar, I leave you where you are.
Bye.
But ok please explain the Reformed position on regeneration, both theologically and historically. I am sure you are fully able, since you are so well read.
June 13, 2009 9:09 PM
mark said:
Gary,
I came to the Doctrines of Grace
gkm: This is the biggest lie ever perpetrated. You believe no "doctrines of Grace." It is like Sproul's book, "Grace Unknown," he doesn't know grace at all.
wholly independent of the writings of Calvin or Agustine, or anybody else for that matter.
Gkm: This is hard to believe, but I am not going to call you a liar, like your friends do me.
It started with Romans 8-9, just the plain reading of those chapters. From what I see you are pretty weak in the scriptures.
gkm: I've studied the Scriptures for some 60 years. All I get here is insults so I'll leave.
I challenge you to go without appealing to extra-biblical writings to defend your position.
Gkm: My position is so easy to defend it is quite amazing that you don't reject the Calvinistic doctrines as much as I do. Any single verse in the Bible proves that all of TULIP is false. What the problem is, is that you just reject what God says. And believe me, I've read all the "reasoning" that Calvinists use to deny the verses. They do exactly what you and your friends here do: make inane comments like, "I see you are pretty weak in the scriptures."
Gkm: Have you read Gill? Hodge? Calvin's Institutes? I've read the institutes through twice. (studied them) All you do is make ridiculous statements like here and before. Why should I give any of my time to people like you?
Gkm: 1Ti 2:4 "[God] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Gkm: Here is Gill on this: Ver. 4. Who will have all men to be saved, &c.] The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, …[I had to cut most of Gill because of the size limit. If you don't have him, I'll send it to you.]
Gkm: So it takes Gill all these words to make people like you believe that God does NOT will that all men be saved! Such doctrine is an abomination. You cannot be convinced that Calvinism is wrong no matter what I say, so why should I bother? I should not bother.
Mark: I challenge you to go without quoting the works of other men to defend your anti-Calvinist position. I'll do the same in defense of the Doctrines of Grace. Are you up for it? Do you have the courage?
Gkm: IF you actually believed God EVER, you'd repudiated Calvinism right now. But you wish to believe the lie rather than God. Are you going to do a better job "explaining" such passages which prove Calvinism wrong than Gill does, or any other of the multitude of expert Reformed Theologians I have read? I have listed them for you. Do you really think you can come up with better exegesis than Reformed Theology has come up with for the last 500 years? I sincerely doubt it. But a single sentence in Scripture PROVES the stinking Calvinistic system is false, so why should I bother? There is no reason at all. The ONLY way you can continue to believe such filth is by disbelieving scripture.
By the way Mark, how come the Pisces and Rooster? Baby Christians know better.
Gary McNees
June 13, 2009 9:56 PM
Gary, perhaps you will learn from this not to post the way you do (by calling them names like idiot,which you did right off the bat). I treated you in the exact way you treated me, as well as the others whom I have read you interact with. It doesn't feel good, now does it?
Thank you for participating.
June 13, 2009 10:35 PM
Gary,
I came to the Doctrines of Grace
"gkm: This is the biggest lie ever perpetrated. You believe no "doctrines of Grace." It is like Sproul's book, "Grace Unknown," he doesn't know grace at all."
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Wow! Emotions run high in your baseless claims.eh? Am I to take you seriously here?
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"Gkm: This is hard to believe, but I am not going to call you a liar, like your friends do me."
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Hard to believe, but not a lier? Hmmm.
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"Gkm: My position is so easy to defend it is quite amazing that you don't reject the Calvinistic doctrines as much as I do. Any single verse in the Bible proves that all of TULIP is false."
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So prove it already!!!
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" What the problem is, is that you just reject what God says."
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So prove that statement to me,'k?
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" And believe me, I've read all the "reasoning" that Calvinists use to deny the verses. They do exactly what you and your friends here do: make inane comments like, "I see you are pretty weak in the scriptures."
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That IS my observation; and you've done nothing here to show me that I am wrong.
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"Gkm: Have you read Gill? Hodge? Calvin's Institutes?"
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No, not yet.
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"I've read the institutes through twice. (studied them)"
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Impressive. I'll get to them eventually, I suppose. They are not high on my list right now.
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"All you do is make ridiculous statements like here and before. Why should I give any of my time to people like you?"
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Because I've challenged you to.
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"Gkm: 1Ti 2:4 "[God] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Gkm: Here is Gill on this: Ver. 4. Who will have all men to be saved, &c.] The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, …[I had to cut most of Gill because of the size limit. If you don't have him, I'll send it to you.]"
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Spurgeon distanced himself from Gill. Gill was closer to hyper-Calvinism; too much so for me.
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"Gkm: So it takes Gill all these words to make people like you believe that God does NOT will that all men be saved! Such doctrine is an abomination. You cannot be convinced that Calvinism is wrong no matter what I say, so why should I bother? I should not bother."
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Why don't you just admit that you don't have the courage to go one on one with me...
I repeat -
I challenge you to go without quoting the works of other men to defend your anti-Calvinist position. I'll do the same in defense of the Doctrines of Grace. Are you up for it? Do you have the courage?
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"Gkm: IF you actually believed God EVER, you'd repudiated Calvinism right now."
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Quite a claim. Try to move me. Try to change my mind, that's all ask.
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"But you wish to believe the lie rather than God. Are you going to do a better job "explaining" such passages which prove Calvinism wrong than Gill does, or any other of the multitude of expert Reformed Theologians I have read? I have listed them for you. Do you really think you can come up with better exegesis than Reformed Theology has come up with for the last 500 years? I sincerely doubt it. But a single sentence in Scripture PROVES the stinking Calvinistic system is false, so why should I bother? There is no reason at all. The ONLY way you can continue to believe such filth is by disbelieving scripture. "
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Just one on one, you and me. That's all I ask, Gary
June 13, 2009 10:37 PM
Gary,
Gary, I said I believed the clear meaning of John 6:47 and the following was your answer:
I deny that you believe it. Define the word "believe."
Gary, I have tried awful hard to look at and discuss the particular Scripture passages with you that you have brought into the discussion, but you will have none of it. Apparently your hatred for the reformed view is such that I cannot break through. You want to cling to your preconceived notion of what I believe and refuse to accept my plain statements of my beliefs.
This leaves me at a dead end to continue. I hope you will take Mark up on his challenge and discuss Scripture.......
June 13, 2009 10:43 PM
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