Antonio and Mark
Antonio - Welcome!
>But we must understand that any such "whatever" is tempered by His essential nature and attributes.God is holy, rightoues, true. God is love, just, and impartial. He is a God of equity, mercy, and grace.Nothing that He would desire could impinge on His essential nature and attributes.<
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Nobody here would have a problem with that statement.
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>Is God sovereign? You bet. Is God capricious, arbitrary, and partial? To be so in any sense would violate His essence.<
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Again, nobody here would have a problem with that statement either. At this point you are beginning to set up your straw man.
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>Let me ask you a question. Would it impinge on God's sovereignty to create humans in His likeness and image?<
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He did so, Adam and Eve. They chose to disobey, and in them the entire race fell into inherited guilt and inherited corruption. See Romans 5:12-21; Eph.2:1-3.
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>Would it violate His sovereignty to give man latitude and freedom to rebel from Him<
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No, it would not. Again, He did so in Adam and Eve. They chose to rebel.
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> or respond to His wooing and drawing?<
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Here you show your seeming Pelagian tendencies. According to Eph. 2:1-3 we are by nature children of wrath. It is our nature,our desire, yea our inclination to sin and rebel against God. Thanks to the fall man loves sin and hates God. See John 3:19 which is descriptive of the whole human race; not just some.
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>Can you consider, rationally and logically, that if God has "ordained" all things "that has ever happened or will happen" as Wayne has suggested, this must include sin, evil, adulteries, murders, incest, rape, pedaphilia, homosexuality, brutality, matricide and patricide, genocide, etc?<
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God did ordain the fall, Antonio. What you mention in the above are results from the Fall. God hates all that you mention and man is responsible for his actions. Because of all that you mention above the wrath of God is coming.
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>Such a thought is only feasible to someone who has bought into a heavily-stacked, lop-sided, and unbalanced understanding of the bible. God forbid that He ordain pedaphilia!<
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Again, this logic of yours is the product of your Pelagianism, your seeming refusal to acknowledge that the results of the Fall are seen in man's subsequent corrupt affections.
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>To consider God ordaining that which He finds abominable may be in vogue in various theological circles, but it offends the God given conscious and Scriptural witness that God is Holy, good, righteous, and light (not to mention love!).<
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It only offends those who, for whatever reason,choose to ignore the clear teachings of scripture of man's corruption,his hostility against God. See Romans 8:7. God went into that race that hates Him and rescued a people for Himself, having changed their affections along the way so that they no longer hate Him, but now love Him
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>Any view of God's sovereignty that has God necessitating men's abominations by His "fore-ordination" and "predestination" should be obviously rejected.<
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Why? He ordained the Fall. He hates sin. He judges and punishes sin. He sent His Son to pay the price for sin. Isaiah 53. Those whom He elected have their affections changed and come to the Son. See John 6:44-45,65.
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>But what has happened is that some theologies have become like secret societies where the initiated slowly become indoctrinated to the point that they will believe things that go against all reason. Such attitudes are taught and not formed.<
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Antonio, such a way with words. ALL of the Calvinists that I know personally came to Calvinism purely through the scriptures, no indoctrination, no text books. My journey began with a lost argument in 1978. My Calvinism grew while attending churches wholly hostile to my budding Calvinism - no text books were involved, just the scriptures themselves.
We see John 12:32 as teaching that Jesus also does the drawing, as does the Father and the Spirit. If you'll notice that the NKJ says "all peoples", meaning from every tribe and language on earth. See Rev.5:9-10. We do not see this as a different drawing than that of those whom the Father has given Him.
Mark D. Pierson
posted by mark pierson at 12:58 PM
15 Comments:
There are but two choices on God ordaining evil. He either allows it or he is powerless to stop it.
1. He does not ordain evil…. This means he has no power over evil and cannot control it or do anything about it. Evil has no boundaries and potentially can cause anything to happen. We are at the mercy of evil and not God.
2. God ordains evil by allowing it….. He can control it, stop it entirely, use it for his purposes and in short has complete and total power over it. We are at the mercy of God and not evil.
Evidently Antonio has chosen choice one which is to deny God's power and sovereignty. Considering the overwhelming amount of Scripture that refute this position, Antonio has constructed a God of his liking. This is a God that suits his thinking and is but an idol of his imagination.
Wayne
March 22, 2007 2:48 PM
Great job Mark. Right on the money.
March 22, 2007 3:53 PM
"ALL of the Calvinists that I know personally came to Calvinism purely through the scriptures, no indoctrination, no text books."
This is certainly true for me.
Here's some of my testimony, for whatever it's worth. My copied and pasted comment from just yesterday at another blog:
For me it was a process. And I can honestly say that I was not 'convinced' by anyone's personal arguments, or by playing Scripture ping-pong. I actually came to embrace God's sovereignty (and that's what I call it b/c before blogging I'd never heard of all this other 'stuff') in the fall of 2004. (didn't blog until 2/05)
We attended our former church for 10 years. Several years back a couple of my husband's friends introduced him to this pastor, Matt Chandler. Had him listening to his teachings on CD. Also, he listened to a lot of this guy named Dave Busby, now deceased. Also a guy in MN named Dave Johnson (pastor of evangelist Busby). Hubby then had me begin listening to some of their teachings, as well.
It was all quite different than what I'd been hearing from the pulpit. I discovered that much of the more 'difficult and very weighty' texts were not being taught at all - simply ignored. And some of what was being taught had no foundation in Scripture. (i.e. 'age of accountability,' making 'decisions' for Christ) We began visiting Matt's church in the spring/summer of 2004, and decided to join. We attended the new member's class that fall, where we went thru the church handbook thing (by-laws, what we believe, and why, etc). During that time I got introduced to texts and passages and doctrine that I'd never heard teaching on before - mainly having to do with the sovereignty of God. From there, I began do a lot of studying on my own. Etc, Etc
Anyway, God, and He alone, changed my core beliefs, opened my eyes and made His truth real in my life - not just in the area of 'theology' & 'doctrine,' but in personal areas, all kinds of things. The reality of His sovereignty as revealed in the Scriptures collided with my preconceived notions and 'made up' theology about God.
There is no doubt he changed my heart from a 'man-centered' theology to 'God-centered' one.
Anyway, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
:)
March 22, 2007 4:04 PM
Antonio, my views are in line with Mark's, so no need for me to be redundant, I suppose. :)
I am still wrestling with some things, however...
This being one:
Wayne: "1. He does not ordain evil…. This means he has no power over evil and cannot control it or do anything about it."
I'm not sure I agree. Why would God ordaining evil mean that He'd have no power over it? I see it just the opposite...Evil DOES have boundaries b/c they're set by God. And since evil is under God's sovereign control, we're not at it's mercy.
" 2. God ordains evil by allowing it"
My question to this has always been, what really is the difference between allowing it and ordaining it. 'Allowing' evil seems to suggest that evil just so happens to occur - outside of God's plan/will/purpose - and He then decides whether or not to 'allow' it.
Could it be that, for the most part, we reformed types are wrankled by, and have a difficult time actually 'saying' that God ordains evil?
I don't, really. And I'm NOT saying that God commits evil, or that He sins, etc, etc. I'm saying that as with ALL things, God ordains it - in conjunction with His will/plans/purposes, etc.
I reserve the right to be wrong, however, as I'm still stumbling through all this stuff. :)
March 22, 2007 4:38 PM
Gayla,
I think we are in agreement here. Read the two choices I posed again.
I believe choice two is correct and that choice one is incorrect.
We have evil in the world. God is sovereign and allows it. This means he ordains evil but does not cause it. As you say, he can and does restrain it.
My point was that choice #1 is all that is left for someone who denies his sovereign power and rule.
March 22, 2007 5:21 PM
Ah, Wayne, got it! I'm tracking with you... :)
March 22, 2007 6:57 PM
Scriptures says it all.....
I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose." ( Isaiah 46:9-10)
Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come? ( Lamentations 3:37-38)
"Shall we receive good at the hand of the Lord and not evil?"
If God reigns as sovereign over the world, then the evil of the world is not outside his design. "Does evil befall a city, unless the Lord has done it?" ( Amos 3:6)
For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses. ( Psalm 135:5-7)
Not one sparrow "will fall to the ground without your Father's will" ( Matthew 10:29)
Cristina
March 22, 2007 9:52 PM
Wayne,
Succinct. Your second comment clarifies a little. You make it very clear. Thanks.
Cristina,
I don't know you but please accept my gratitude. Thank you for taking the time to type up all the scripture passages. You're right. If we stick to scripture it will become clear! You're clearly the kind of Baptist Girl of whom Spurgeon would be proud!
I'm feeling guilty for not jumping in on this discussion wholeheartedly. Honestly, I'm a little weary. I guess that's why I feel guilty. I should be willing to lovingly share the truth with anyone who is a genuine seeker of it. Being weary is no excuse. Thanks for carrying the ball for now!
Dave
March 22, 2007 11:42 PM
Dave, please sir, DO NOT FEEL GUILTY!!! Oh my, this blogging thing has the potential of overtaking our whole lives if we don't watch out! LOL Truthfully, I've been weary this week too - too many deep discussions going on at one time!
Cristina, excellent, EXCELLENT verses to submit! Good thing is there are these and a slew of other verses just like them which point to an all-sovereign God of the universe!
March 23, 2007 9:56 AM
Cristina,
Great verses. They really need no explanation except by those that want to reinvent God.
It is amazing to me that some, if not most, of the bloggers I read who have an unbiblical view of salvation, also have unbiblical view of God's sovereignty.
I am reminded of that ole advertising slogan about having it your way. I believe their motive is to have God their way. They want God's attributes to conform to their image of how he should be.
These writings of Antonio's that Mark refuted so well are very revealing.
Wayne
March 23, 2007 10:42 AM
Scripture only? That is my story as well, and here’s how it happened:
I had casual T.U.L.I.P. conversations with a reformed coworker. That year, I read through the Bible, cover-to-cover. It is my position that if Scripture teaches something different from my pastor, I will first make sure I understand what God’s word says, but then, I must always go with Scripture. Careful Bible reading forced me to the conclusion that John Calvin didn’t invent anything, but rather, that Armenianism is extra-biblical.
It’s absolutely incredible to look back since then and see how strongly this perspective has affected my prayer life and evangelism/discipleship.
March 23, 2007 10:47 AM
Many non calvinists don't seem to realize that we Calvinists once held the exact same beliefs they now do. We offered up all the same arguments against the Doctrins of Grace,and were angered if not sickened by said doctrins as they are now. They do not realize that we have seen ALL of their arguments before, having once owned them ourselves. Their argumentation proves that there is nothing new under the sun. It is ALL "Garden Variety".
March 23, 2007 11:43 AM
There just came a time when I realized that if I truely wanted to have the scriptures themselves be what molded my concept of God, if I truely wanted to be enslaved and captivated by them, then I had to forsake my silly and unscriptural arguments and embrace the Doctrins of Grace.
March 23, 2007 12:29 PM
Hey Craver!
ArmEnians aren't extrabiblical, they're just an ethnic group! Leave 'em alone, would ya!
Now, ArmInians are another story altogether!;)
March 23, 2007 3:04 PM
(blushing)
March 23, 2007 3:39 PM
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