John 15:18 If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Matthew 5:11-12 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. (12) Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.Jesus concluded the Beatitudes with the statement in the above passage. He pronounces a blessing on Christians that have been reviled and persecuted and goes on to tell them that they should rejoice and be glad when it happens.
(Revile: to assail with contemptuous or opprobrious language; address or speak of abusively.)
Therefore the contributors here at Bluecollar have reason to rejoice and be glad over the comments we had this past Thursday and Friday. For proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ unfiltered we have been accused of and called the following: ignorant, bigoted, cowardly, deluded, impatient ,superstitious, self-righteous, afraid of questions, prejudiced, having a god-delusion, needing to be ashamed, wallowing in an evidence-denying world, intolerant, dogmatic, fanatical, aggressive, lack of humility, lack of graciousness, judgmental, making scary threats, bullying, perpetrating our delusion, sounding like a monk doing his incantations, and purposefully filling children’s heads with fear! All of this was written on just two threads. One Unitarian universalist said, "truth is what you perceive it to be" and won a convert from New Zealand with this logic. JD was lied about and falsely accused of being a self-styled prophet and in the ministry for financial reward. Some of the commenters were from England and insulted and accused our president of going to war because “God told him to”. We were mockingly asked if we have any idea where the Lake of Fire actually is? Then, after JD set the record straight on the falsehood about his position, he was accused of resorting to ad hominem attacks. I believe we have met the standard for being reviled.
Luke 6:22 “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!
Our response should be love and prayer. There is no greater love than proclaiming the truth to people under the control of Satan and the world. This we did and we can be comforted and be glad for our response of truth. We are not called to be passive and concede the truth battle, but we are to put on the whole armor of God and participate. In addition to the Bluecollar contributors, I would like to commend donsands, Matt Waymeyer, Ben, and Magnus for their contributions and support.
posted by jazzycat at 1:28 PM
72 Comments:
I think perhaps that you are missing a fundamental point here. The issue has nothing to do with 'the son of man' ie, the personhood of Jesus of Nazareth, for whom I for one have the utmost respect and admiration as an enlightened spiritual leader of his time.
I think the reason that many, balanced, intelligent and very worthy people respond negatively to fundamentalist christians is because you are so intolerant of any other point of view apart from your own and feel you have the right to judge and condemn others who do not believe as you do. Extreme religious views, whether they be Islamic, Mormon, Christian or whatever have been the cause of war and suffering throughout time.
I for one have no problem with you following your faith and living your life in anyway that you choose, as long as you don't tell me what I should and shouldn't believe. I wouldn't have the audacity to tell you that you should be following my spiritual practices, because I have respect for you as a person capable of making your own choices based on the knowledge of who you are and an awareness of your personal life purpose.
On a personal note, and just for the record, I am an ex-christian, writing contributor to a women's study Bible and once married to a church minister. I'm still recovering 12 years later from having had my life destroyed by a church who stood by and watched while their leader left me and our 5 children for a member of our congregation, psychologically and mentally took me apart while I struggled to make sense of what was happening within the context of my faith, and then later abducted my 3 youngest children taking themn 3,000 miles away.
Tragically, laughably, he still practices as a church minister.
I'm happy finally with the spiritual beliefs that I now embrace. I know who I am and what is right for me. I wish you love, light and above all peace.
January 20, 2008 9:47 AM
To settle the accusation made in the previous post:
>find encouragement, equipment, and a discerning as well as a prophetic voicehere.
That is in 'Even so's' blog profile under the heading "about me".
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that anybody independently appointed him as a prophet. He must have done it himself, hence "self-styled".
You guys can sure back-track fast when you're under pressure.
January 20, 2008 11:29 AM
James, First off, if Wayne (Jazzy Cat) asks you not to come back he does so with my full backing. So please respect his wishes.
Secondly, JD has my utmost respect, and I do not like how you distort what he says or any of the other things you have done against him on this blog. You can go on hating Christ all you want, just not on this blog. I stand up for my friends.
January 20, 2008 12:18 PM
Magdalene,
You said...... I think the reason that many, balanced, intelligent and very worthy people respond negatively to fundamentalist christians is because you are so intolerant of any other point of view apart from your own and feel you have the right to judge and condemn others who do not believe as you do.
Your problem here is with the message of the Bible. We are just the messenger. We do not condemn and judge sinners because that is what we are as well. We do believe and affirm Biblical principles and we reject beliefs that are not Biblical. This does not violate the true meaning of tolerance which is: (a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.) The post-modern politically correct definition of tolerance seems to be the following: (truth is relative and all beliefs must be accepted as equally valid) This is especially true of religious beliefs. However, if religion A is a contradiction to religion B, then it is possible for A to be correct or B to be correct. It is also possible for neither to be correct, but it is not possible for A and B both to be correct. That is the illogical nonsense that the adherents of the post-modern concept of tolerance is asking people to affirm. Thus, when Christians affirm the Christianity of the Holy Bible and deny conflicting belief systems, they are in violation of politically correct standards and are labeled as fundamentalists and taking the Bible too literally. More later.
January 20, 2008 1:29 PM
> "we reject beliefs that are not Biblical."
You appear also to reject evidence and experience. To believe is childish; to experience is adult.
January 20, 2008 1:42 PM
Magalene,
You said…….Extreme religious views, whether they be Islamic, Mormon, Christian or whatever have been the cause of war and suffering throughout time.
True, as has other causes unrelated to religion. Not all who claim the name of Christian is in fact a Christian.
you said……I for one have no problem with you following your faith and living your life in anyway that you choose, as long as you don't tell me what I should and shouldn't believe.
It is your opinion that all kinds of opinions and beliefs are permissible on blogs except Christian religious beliefs? Christian beliefs were expressed here. People came here and expressed different views. Were they not telling us what we should and shouldn’t believe? What should we have done? Does everyone have a right to defend their views except Christians?
More later
January 20, 2008 1:44 PM
Magdalene,
You said…….. I wouldn't have the audacity to tell you that you should be following my spiritual practices, because I have respect for you as a person capable of making your own choices based on the knowledge of who you are and an awareness of your personal life purpose.
Your first sentence on this blog stated, “The dogmatic, fanatical and intolerant posts and comments on this blog are the precise reason why so many people find fundamentalist christians such smug pains in the butt.”
Now, what was that you were saying about your respect and tolerance and our audacity? Your respect and tolerance is a wonder to behold.
More later.
January 20, 2008 1:54 PM
You appear also to reject evidence and experience. To believe is childish; to experience is adult.
This is a non-sequitor...Jazzy is merely pointing out that the bible is the final authority for us w/ regards to faith and practice.
You sound about like the exitentialist David Hume.
January 20, 2008 1:55 PM
a bit**
January 20, 2008 1:55 PM
Magdalene,
Your personal note sounded tragic and I am glad you are now doing well. Concerning your ex-husband, I would repeat what I said earlier, All that claim to be Christian are not Christians and this includes many who are ordained ministers.
January 20, 2008 2:00 PM
Mark, I have viewed your blog photograph and have decided that it says a great deal about the type of stance you appear to have taken in life. Folded arms, very matter of fact and defiant. Not the kind of welcoming, open-armed brotherly love sort of thing I'd expect from a real Christian/christian. Note the C/c bit. To me, a Christian is somebody who believes in Christ as the God-sent saviour of all mankind. To be a Christian, one must believe in the word of the bible and follow all of it's teachings. However, christian has been a term used to describe people with a loving, caring, forgiving nature. And therein lies something of a dichotomy.
You see, I've always been deeply interested in the way in which a message which I'm sure to begin with was real, deep, and sincere, has been and continues to be manipulated, warped and used as a cover-all excuse for genocide, sexism, rascism, homophobia, slavery, warfare, child abuse (sexual and emotional) and animal rights abuses.
Is there, do you feel, a way in which you PERSONALLY can explain, without the use of The Scriptures, by using your own free will, wit and intelligence, given to you as you believe by God, why people have killed maimed, commited dreadful acts of inhumanity and got away with it under an alleged Christian banner.
January 20, 2008 2:01 PM
Magdalene,
love, light, and peace. Thanks. These are three important Christian concepts and I wish them for you as well.
January 20, 2008 2:03 PM
Magdelene,
I echo Jazzy's sentiments...I would be disillusioned with Christianity if the same had happened to me. I do, however, doubt your ex-husband was authentically saved to begin with...like Jazzy said, all that claim to be Christians are not Christians.
January 20, 2008 2:05 PM
Seattle Boy,
You said......
You appear also to reject evidence and experience. To believe is childish; to experience is adult.
I take it you have abandoned your view that truth is whatever a person preceives it to be.
January 20, 2008 2:15 PM
"Is there, do you feel, a way in which you PERSONALLY can explain, without the use of The Scriptures, by using your own free will, wit and intelligence, given to you as you believe by God, why people have killed maimed, commited dreadful acts of inhumanity and got away with it under an alleged Christian banner."
They were not followers of Christ, period. Are you? If not then He commands you to repent and believe the gospel. If you do not, then you will perish.
January 20, 2008 2:31 PM
T. Rex: I don't think you will make much progress. These guys are living a delusion. They believe in Adam and Eve and Naoah's Ark - yes they really do! Now, whilst an Omnipotent God COULD have done it that way, we know for an absolute certain fact he DIDN'T do it that way. They are deluded.
Yes, jazzy, it is not uncommon for people to hold mutually exclusives as truth. Just turn to the courts for your answer.
And Mark, who are you to say who are and who are not followers of Christ? I believe the crusaders certainly considered themselves to be followers of Christ. You have the ludicrous scenario repeated throughout history where opposing armies in a battle are praying to the same God for a holy and just victory!
January 20, 2008 2:43 PM
Wayne, regarding your original post...what concerns me more than the persecutions coming our way from those who are lost, are the charges leveled at us by the Church.
Those of us who adhere to the 'fundamentals' of the faith, who actually seek to live our lives according to the Word of God, are now being called pretty much the same things you've listed out on your post. I guess we have the emergent wordly philosophy to thank for that.
Dangerous territory when you've got people who claim the name of Christ blatently and proudly ignoring the very Scriptures that we're called to obey.
Your 1:29 comment is spot on, BTW.
January 20, 2008 4:01 PM
"On a personal note, and just for the record, I am an ex-christian, writing contributor to a women's study Bible and once married to a church minister...."
Let me preface what I'm about to say: Obviously we (all of us who blog) don't know one another, and this is certainly not the forum for true accountabilty and deep walking-alongside-each-other relationships. But when someone, such as yourself, Magdalene, and Lorenzo on the previous thread, divulge a little history about yourselves, it's truly a window to the soul's wounds and hurts. It explains a little bit of why and how people arrived at their thinking.
So...that said, first I'm sorry you went through what you did, Magdalene. Of all places to be spiritually abused, the 'church' wounds probably cut the deepest. I've also had friends who were wounded, then disillusioned by the church, and when I read your account, my first thought was to recommend this book to you. It's called, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church." It's by Dave Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen.
Dave Johnson is pastor of Church of the Open Door, in Maple Grove MN, and my husband & I have listened, via CD, to him for years. This is a great book, and may aid in your healing process.
I can see where you would become disillusioned, not so much with Christianity, but with religiosity. It is obvious that your former church did NOT practice biblical discipline with your husband (with the end goal, his resoration), nor did they walk WITH you through the trial. The leaders of that congregation will, at some point, be held accountable for their actions or lack thereof.
Same with the leaders of the church he's at now.
As to the state of his soul, I cannot know whether or not he is saved - Christians can and do fall into gross sin for a season. I don't know enough about the whole situation to make an intelligent judgment on that.
I do pray, Magdelene, that you would seek God, who is merciful and gracious, and who is the only One who can truly heal our wounded souls.
January 20, 2008 4:24 PM
gayla,
You are right. Many (your choice: conservative, bible believing, fundamentalist, born again, orthodox) Christians are not aware that we are in the cross-hairs from the liberal and emergent church as well as the world at large. When Jesus said,“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”, we believe it, especially when it is consistent with the teachings of the entire Holy Bible. That it is the only way to be right with God, rejects all the many ways that man has imagined he can be right with God and our pluralistic culture cannot accept this. Therefore, the world says we take the Bible too literally, which is post-modern speak for we believe what it says as opposed to refuting clear teaching with creative interpretation or in some cases denying the teaching all together. They are as I said earlier blaming us (the messenger) for the message of the Holy Bible. Where is the love and mercy in reporting the entire counsel of God?
It is amazing how the bible predicts these things will occur and century after century they keep on happening.......
January 20, 2008 4:47 PM
Seattle Boy,
On another thread in your message of love and doctrine you said.......
No, you're all wrong! It's ME that's the Unitarian!
We are not judgemental. If you want to believe in the Old Testament literally, go ahead, we won't judge you. If you regard it as allegorical and you accept evolution, go ahead, that's fine too. If you only want the New Testament, that's OK. Even if it's Mother Earth or the Sun, or your own sentience that guides you, we can cope with that. If you want to be reincarnated - see you next time!
Now you say:
These guys are living a delusion. They believe in Adam and Eve and Naoah's Ark - yes they really do! Now, whilst an Omnipotent God COULD have done it that way, we know for an absolute certain fact he DIDN'T do it that way. They are deluded.
Hmmmm. Which is it? Could it be that the first is disingenuous rhetoric and the second from the heart?
Words mean things and we do leave a record and trail in the blogging world, eh.
January 20, 2008 5:04 PM
In reference to the past two posts - as to the question of how Lorenzo and Maalie came to participate in this blog - they did so originally from my post entitled, "For Maalie". I used a phrase in a previous post, “my whole point is that it all starts in the heart” and he asked for clarification of the phrase. JD entered into the rather lengthy discussion with Maalie and Lorenzo on this particular post and they linked here through JD’s blog. Lorenzo, the artist, and Maalie, the biologist, are sister and brother. Lorenzo and I have been blogging friends for quite some time. Since I also am a scientist as well as a believer, I think that Maalie is curious to understand how science and Christianity mesh in my life.
Gayla, I thank you very much for your comments on both posts. I think you are quite right in assuming that Maalie is not a believer and, though we have not talked enough for me to actually have had the chance to ask, I would not be surprised to hear that he doubts the existence of a God that can be know and who desires relationship with His people. I am delighted with your summary sentence, since I do not feel called to force-feed scripture either, rather to simply say what I believe and why I believe it, to give an answer for the hope that is in me.
Maalie, I would like to offer a possible explanation about JD’s “prophetic voice” as I too find your use of the term “self-styled” offensive. I think the problem lies in our different points of reference. Since my point of reference is scripture, I must reference at least Ephesians 4:11-16 and 1Corinthians 12, where the different gifts the Holy Spirit gives to people once they become believers are listed. Having read what JD writes for quite a while now, it appears to me that he is, indeed, gifted in prophecy, the Greek word meaning “declaring the Word and purpose of God”. Since I consider this gifting to be from God and I imagine that JD does as well, sand is pecifically given for His own purposes, what seems to be a suggestion from you that he took it upon himself to be a prophet is offensive as it would indicate great pride, a character quality that I do not find in JD. So yes, someone "independently appointed him as a prophet" - God.
Magdalene, I am so very sorry. I went through something very similar - and he still attends church, Bible in hand, two wives and several children later - leaving a trail of brokenness in his wake - it is hard to understand, but it is man and religion, not Christ that are to blame. My prayers are with you as you seek to reestablish level footing in your life and for your children.
To the rest of you, I can see why you are offended or feel attacked by some of the statements made by Lorenzo and Maalie, but I am very sad at the same time that this is what you chose. It is difficult to be offended and be salt and light at the same time. It tends to make one hoard seed that should be liberally strewn about and nourished with grace.
January 20, 2008 5:54 PM
Susan, thanks for visiting. :)
Your well-articulated comment was very gracious; and I totally agree with you. We are called to give up our so-called 'rights' as we press on to further the gospel.
I'm gonna ask one more time - Seattle Boy, in the tenets of the Unitarian sect, in whom or what does one place his faith?
If you've seen my question, and you don't wish to answer, that's perfectly fine, but just let me know that, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks.
January 20, 2008 6:24 PM
Gayla, sorry, no time right now we're gonna intercept an unidentified fishing boat. Try it on google, there's plenty of stuff out there...
Gotta go.
January 20, 2008 6:37 PM
"Not all who claim the name of Christian is in fact a Christian."
This is so very true.
There are wolves in sheepsclothing for sure: False teachers, and false disciples.
Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit".
What is the fruit?
Self-righteousness, greed, apathy, self-interest, and hatred for the Truth. The false Christians, sometimes, can be very deceiving.
Jesus said, "The false teachers, which shall be many, will come to deceive, if possible, even God's elect."
Now that's scary. We really need to be discerning.
The bottom line is love. The fruit of love will be very evident in the genuine children of God.
They will love Christ first, above all else. And they will love all humans on this earth.
It won't be a mushy, leaky kind of love, but a love with teeth to it. A sacrifical love, and a love that will confess it's sins.
It will be a love which loves the truth of God's Word, and would be willing to die, rather than twist God's Word for their own desires and agendas.
But most of all, it's a grateful love to Christ for dying all a cruel Cross for one's sin. And this same love will adore and worship this same Christ alone, and will have no other gods before him.
Jesus said, "The Father seeks for worshipers to come and worship Him, in Spirit and in truth.
And that's what we do as Christians. We worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ our lord, through the power of His Spirit and by His grace.
And all this is done by faith in Christ Jesus, not by our own exertion.
January 20, 2008 6:49 PM
"One Unitarian universalist said, "truth is what you perceive it to be" and won a convert from New Zealand with this logic."
I assume you are referring here to clara. She said she was Australian, and her profile also proclaims this. I am from New Zealand, and it takes three hours for me to fly across the Tasman Sea to the east coast of Australia. Such points are seen as important to we citizens of Oceania ;-)
January 20, 2008 7:28 PM
Half Mom,
"It is difficult to be offended and be salt and light at the same time. It tends to make one hoard seed that should be liberally strewn about and nourished with grace."
=========
I will humbly ask you to read all the blogs of all the contributors here before you accuse us of hording the seed. Why I'll even ask you to go back even to my earliest postings, and right on through, to see if I am "hording". I'll ask you consider also that I have printed tracts to distribute at shoping malls and factories, and, yes, passed them out as well. I've been disliked by many a former friend for my faith. I'll ask you to consider that I have been to India, at my own expense, to preach to the lost. No, I don't want you to think that I think that I am something special. I just ask that you curb your rather sharp comments aimed at us here with your last comment.
January 20, 2008 7:32 PM
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength---Deut.6:5
...but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD...Deut8:3
Love God with all of your being? Live by every word that proceeds from His Mouth? Who has ever lived like that? Who CAN live like that?
Yet, these two verses seem to be God's design for the whole human race. Where it is written " all have sinned and fall short of of the glory of God" it would appear that these two verses are the standard that mankind falls short of; especially since these very verses are echoed by Jesus Himself through Whom God has spoken in these last days.
But, the heart of man is not inclined to love God like that or to obey His word. It is written, " We have turned every one to his own way" and " there is none righteous, no not one: There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;There is none who does good, no, not one" Rom. 3:10-12.
What an indictment! Paul says that the human race is a "slave to sin". That is, we have a bent towards transgressing God's laws and falling short of His standard.
On the day God created man He concluded--" Then God saw every thing that He had made, and indeed it was very good". Interestingly though, after Adam and Eve disobeyed God His conclussion changed: " Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually".
So that's it:Man became a slave to sin as a result of Adam's sin in the garden, for there God told Adam " for in the day you eat of it you shall suely die". Adam,
and the whole human race with him, died spiritually that day meaning he, and through him, we, became slaves to sin. Loving God and obeying His word then became contrary to our nature.
I must exclaim with Isaiah, "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips".
Hopeless. Helpless. Utterly lost. Spiritually dead.
Who could possibly stand before God when it was time to give an account of our lives before Him? He is light and there is no darkness in Him at all. He is Holy and Just. Sin must be paid for for His justice demands that. "The wages of sin is death". Who then can obtain a righteous standing before God?
Answer: " But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed---even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe --- being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness---that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Rom. 3:21-26.
Oh, the wisdom of God! HE has provided the way for those who believe to have a right standing before Him. It is through faith,no effort or devising on our part, purely of Him. The one believing in Jesus is declared righteous, free from the guilt and penalty of sin. It is by His unmerrited favor. The christian is redeemed from the slave market of sin,paid for by the blood of Jesus.
He will be called " THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS"
January 20, 2008 9:01 PM
Mark, I was speaking specifically about the interactions with Lorenzo and Maalie on this and the previous post. Although I read JD's blog, my only experiences here have been over the last couple of days and these are the only ones I am referring to. While my comments were intended to be pointed, they were not intended to be sharp - no pun intended.
It appeared to me that several of the blog contributors expected non-believers to think, act and phrase questions like believers and were offended and retaliatory when they did not. It also seemed to me that none of you remembered, "and such were some of you".
Whether Maalie is taunting you or not, only God knows, I do not. If he is, and you don't rise to the bait, he will go away. Lorenzo is serious however. My concern was that by hanging onto your own rights for how people should “talk” to you on a blog, and forcing the issue by asking them to leave, you lost your chance for the divine appointment that God sent your way.
January 20, 2008 10:47 PM
Mark,
Amen. Present the gospel in season and out of season. If anyone is offended by this gospel, then their problem is with God and what he has said in his Holy Word.
January 20, 2008 10:49 PM
Kiwi,
Point taken. I was sloppy for not checking that out when I wrote the post rather than going with my memory. A pastor from New Zealand spoke in my church a few years back. New Zealand is a beautiful country. Come again. However, I must say, we are not ashamed of the gospel at Bluecollar.
January 20, 2008 10:55 PM
You were being reviled for your personalities, not your Christianity.
January 21, 2008 4:17 AM
Halfmom - your comments were out of place. Defending people who make fun of the gospel, and use filthy language, and all the while standing against Christian brethren who try to live the gospel, as well as preach it, that is not right. Their language is out of place on this blog. We are commanded to preach repentance and the remission of sins. Have you done so? I hope that you have.
Meanwhile, a pastor, reading your friend's posting here, (not JD) suggested my deleting your friend's comments. I agreed that I should, and did so. Vile and disgusting comments will get deleted everytime.
January 21, 2008 7:19 AM
Viking, "You were being reviled for your personalities, not your Christianity."
What a surprise. Boy, do I feel put in my place.
January 21, 2008 8:03 AM
My name has been used in my absence so out of common justice please allow me a brief reply. It appears to me that you actually like revel in the prospect of being hated and reviled. I do not hate or revile you, I have not used those words. Neither do I hate Jesus, he done nothing to me that would call for that.
I simply disagree with you, and choose to base my own view of the universe on experience and evidence, not blind faith. And I am really not at all clear what these sins are that I am supposed to have committed. I lead as kind and honest a life as I can.
January 21, 2008 8:39 AM
Viking Warrior,
You said..... You were being reviled for your personalities, not your Christianity.
Your very first comment here:
There seems to be a lot of judging here. Shame on you.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Does judging not apply to you? Is not a fact that every comment you have made here has been judgmental with no effort made to interact in civil conversation?
January 21, 2008 8:51 AM
I do not judge ye. I merely point out the teachings to ye.
Remove not the splinter from your brethren's eye before ye remove the plank from thy own.
I merely quote.
January 21, 2008 8:57 AM
Maalie, did you see my last comment, partially to you, on the previous post?
January 21, 2008 8:57 AM
Since you have been gracious not to do delete me, may I ask, in all humility, whether you folks adhere to this teaching in Lev. 19, 17-19: do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread.
Gayla, yes I saw that, thank you. Once of the more considered remarks I have seen here, I might add. I didn't reply because it appears that I wasn't granted the freedom to do so.
January 21, 2008 9:19 AM
Maalie,
You said..... “I lead as kind and honest a life as I can.”
I used to think the same thing and that God graded on a curve and I was basically good and honest. But I was brought to understand that God’s standard is perfection and I was a long way from that standard. However, God provided a way for my sins to be dealt with in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Through his perfection as the second Adam, he not only lived the perfect life, but died on the cross to pay the sin debt of all who believe and accept through faith. Eph 2:8-9 (KJV) says For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9)Not of works, lest any man should boast. Therefore, it is through faith in Jesus that one is saved, not leading as honest a life as one can.
Isaiah 53:4-6 is a quite remarkable prophecy about Jesus written about 700 years prior to Jesus being on earth. Therefore, we are talking about much more than ‘blind faith’ here. We are talking about fulfilled prophecy, a real historical Jesus, A Bible record that includes historical events, and ancient history. But most of all we are talking about many early disciples (+500) that saw a resurrected Jesus. Many of these disciples suffered and died for their witness. Do you believe that many people would suffer and die for a lie? Do you believe that many people became so mentally deluded that they suffered and died for a lie?
You have admitted you have no clue as to how something came from nothing. A supreme super intelligent being that has revealed himself throughout history through old testament prophets and now through Jesus Christ is our answer.
January 21, 2008 9:31 AM
Viking Warrier,
I think I have it now. We are judgmental, but you merely point out our shortcomings and our Biblical teachings you don't like.
January 21, 2008 9:40 AM
> A supreme super intelligent being that has revealed himself throughout history through old testament prophets and now through Jesus Christ is our answer.
But that isn't an answer! What you are effectively saying is that you don't know how it happened, so let's erect the notion a supreme being who did it! That is how all creation myths start (and there are plenty of them).
What I do know is that some phenomena that for centuries were ascribed to the work of God can now be shown to be explainable without recourse to the supernatural. To deny this is to be blinkered by faith, not liberated by experience and evidence.
January 21, 2008 9:45 AM
maalie,
How did life begin from mud? And how did the earth get an ozone layer?
And where did all the water come from? And why only so much water?
Why did apes begin to talk? And how did all these languages come about from all these apes?
I would say someone can believe that apes became intelligent, and began to make languages, and then the next thing you know we have thousands of articulate languages, but I see the tower of Babel as much more logical.
Just a few thoughts I had.
January 21, 2008 10:07 AM
Donsands: These are relevant questions that scientists have been asking for decades. And the answer is of course that we shall never actually know, because we can't go back in time.
However, what we CAN do is put forward possible explanations based on the laws of science as we know them. We do not have to prove that it actually happened that way, only that it could have. And since this does not invoke the supernatural, it becomes the most parsimonious explanation, the one that science accepts.
Now, I am not going to attempt to cover the first year of a Bachelor's degree in natural Science in a blog comment, as I would have to do.
However, I can recommend, as I have done before, that if you are serious in your quest for understanding, you read some of the mainstream peer-reviewed scientific journals (or even text books). In the meantime, look here is a possible start; I have selected an American professor from Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego to start, but there are many others. You might also look at Miller's experiments as a starting place. Some of the language is of course technical, and you may feel you would like to read some basic natural science first in order to grasp it. I trust that doesn't sound patronising, it is the best I can do to help you in this forum.
I am pleased you are not deleting me.
January 21, 2008 10:26 AM
Is anyone able to respond to my query about agriculture and clothing, a little above this one?
January 21, 2008 10:35 AM
You said….. What you are effectively saying is that you don't know how it happened, so let's erect the notion a supreme being who did it! That is how all creation myths start (and there are plenty of them).
Did you not consider the evidence that I presented about Christianity. Let me list them:
1. A Bible written by many authors written over a approximately 2000 year period all pointing to the same God. More and more revealed as time progressed.
2. Accurate prophecy about many things and a massive amount concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ.
3. An Old Testament that points to exactly what Jesus accomplished.
4. Historical record of Jesus that is affirmed by even unbelievers. Includes a very remarkable record of performing miracles.
5. Timid and fearful disciples that saw Jesus after the resurrection.
6. Very same disciples then became fearless and suffered and died for the gospel. Would many disciples die for a lie or all be deluded?
7. The sudden change of Saul/Paul who in an instant changed from a persecutor of Christians to a zealous teacher of Christ.
Yet, you keep insisting that there is no evidence whatsoever. You have stated a very firm belief in the scientific evidence for human caused global warming, yet thirty years ago (a mere blip in earth time) the same scientists were warning of global cooling and a coming ice age. I do not wish to argue that subject and merely point it out for comparison with myths, blind faith and such.
Granted there are and have been many false religions and false creation stories. I am defending the God of the Holy Bible only and not the many false religions and gods of the imagination of men.
You seem to not want to refute this evidence, but prefer to regress to your prior assertions. If you can’t engage with the evidence I have presented, I don’t know what else to say.
January 21, 2008 10:42 AM
Much of the Law which God gave to His people Israel, was to show all the other ethnic groups in the world that God's people, or Yahweh's people are distinct, and set apart.
To get into the deep things of how God's law is to be understood would take a whole lot of commenting.
And it may be better done in another setting.
January 21, 2008 10:42 AM
Evolution of language, also logic and reasoning, is considered to have been possible due to an elaboration of the cerebral cortex as a result of eye-limb coordination required when primates adapted to the arboreal ecosystem. It is not my place to give lectures on primatology to you here, but you may find this link useful as a starting point in your quest for further information (assuming your request isn't gratuitous). (You folks spout the bible at me, so it must be OK for me to refer you to the authentic literature).
I have to warn you that it takes a lot of time and study to fully comprehend the now overwhelming evidence in support of the explanation.
January 21, 2008 10:50 AM
A look at Romans chapter 1:18-32 would reveal that man, as a result of the Fall, now hates his Creator and has no desire to be thankful to Him, nor even to retain Him in his knowledge. Eph. 2:1-3 teaches that man is now led about by the spirit (demonic) of the children of disobedience. 1 John 5:19 teaches that the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one - again, as a result of the Fall. Therefore any arguments against the existence of The Creator, and against His Christ originate in the pit of hell, and are held by any and all who are in rebellion against God.
January 21, 2008 10:56 AM
>Did you not consider the evidence that I presented about Christianity. Let me list them:
You don't understand Donsands. That isn't evidence. It's the writing of human beings that can't be independently verified. It's a tautology: The bible is true; it's in the bible so it must be true/ In most peoples' experience and evidence some of (at least) CANNOT be true.
You wouldn't present that in court, and the editor of a peer-reviewed scientific journal would reject it out of hand.
I repeat, it is what people have said (or written). It is hearsay, not evidence.
January 21, 2008 10:57 AM
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January 21, 2008 10:58 AM
> Much of the Law which God gave to His people Israel
I don't understand, I am not subject to the laws of Israel.
By the way, do you take care to only clothes with two different kinds of thread?
January 21, 2008 11:00 AM
Apologies for the typo: do you take care NOT to wear clothes made with more than one kind of thread?
January 21, 2008 11:01 AM
To all Christians:
There will be no more conversation with Maalie. I will leave his comments up so that all can see the writings of a fool.
January 21, 2008 11:03 AM
So much for your fabled American freedom then. I'm beginning to get quite an image of your country...
January 21, 2008 11:07 AM
Maalie,
God certainly could have used evolution if he so desired. But that is not the argument you are making. You are asserting that it all happened apart from a supreme being (God). To make that argument, you need to go back prior to the big bang and explain the events that lead up to the big bang. Where did the matter/energy come from?
You have a big ole elephant in the room that you want to ignore. Your view that science has all these answers on how it could have happened is to ignore the fact that science has been wrong often and especially in the field of cosmetology. If they can offer theories going back billions of years to the big bang, why can’t they go further? You and I both know that the elephant in the room is a huge stumbling block that cannot be discounted by saying, well we just don’t know because we can’t go back in time. You go back in time to the big bang, why can’t you go further?
January 21, 2008 11:08 AM
Oops. And that shall be my last word!
January 21, 2008 11:09 AM
Firstly thank you for ignoring the demand above and responding to me. I respect that.
You go back in time to the big bang, why can’t you go further?
We are stuck in a mutual stalemate here. Where did God come from? These are both unanswered questions. You (or more strictly the bible) doesn't actually know either: to simply ascribe it to a supernatural being is only putting it back another step.
Because we don't understand something now, it doesn't mean we won't one day. A couple of hundred years ago we didn't have genetics as a science; now we can construct the human genome.
It is also possible that it maybe beyond human comprehension; or can only be explained eventually mathematically (like relativity).
Who knows, I cant see into the future. But ascribing it to God is to do no more than I am doing, and that is admitting that "we don't yet know". Nothing to be ashamed of in that.
January 21, 2008 11:17 AM
My goodness you men have been busy. I logged on to see the conversation and before I had written my comment there were 6 new ones!
Thank you Jazzy, for you presentation of gospel and your understanding of the underlying issues.
January 21, 2008 11:19 AM
Now to the comment I have been working on since I saw Jazzy's first comment today to Maalie.
No Maalie, Jazzy is not saying that Christians don't know what happened and therefore made up a myth and believe it based on blind faith because we have nothing to go on. We do have a hypothesis and supporting corraborative evidence. Granted, it is indirect and not causative, but it certainly could be presented at court. You also are correct, of course, in that neither of us can prove our hypotheses since neither can be scientfically tested. Since we cannot test to prove, we also cannot test to disprove, so creation cannot be ruled out completely, so lets just leave it at that, shall we?
Jazzy is looking backwards through history from the vantage point of a historical person, a Jew named Jesus. This vantage point changes the interpretation of all of life, including the Old Testament. Be patient with me and I will get to your original agricultural question.
Jesus is pretty easily documented as a historical figure, so the choice then becomes what one will do with him and his teachings. You could just choose to ignore him, many do. That is your right. Many also place him in the category of “good man” or “prophet” or “wise moral teacher”, however these notions are hard to mesh with the fact that he said he was God. The only people that I know (yes, I actually know a few) who say to me they are god are schizophrenics or those with bipolar disease having a psychotic break. You would think me quite foolish to base my life on the words of a lunatic, wouldn’t you? Perhaps Jesus was actually sane and just talking grandiosely – but that makes him a liar, doesn’t it, because he knew he really was not who he claimed to be? Again, you would think me quite foolish to base my life on the teachings of a liar?
So, that leaves us with only one other possibility, the possibility that he was exactly who he said he was, God in the flesh and the only way, as he stated, back into a relationship with the God the Father.
And now to your agricultural question - if he is God, then he can (and did) both fulfill the old covenant, which he established in the Old Testament, and he can establish a new one. And this is exactly what I believe he did and I think the same thing that Jazzy is saying to you. The new covenant does not negate the old, it fulfilled the old and releases us from its requirements such as the ones about see you questioned.
January 21, 2008 11:31 AM
Mark - Matt 5:22?
January 21, 2008 11:36 AM
Is he a brother, or one who says there is no God?
January 21, 2008 11:39 AM
Halfmom, I thank you also for ignoring the edict and responding, I appreciate it. I am more than happy to leave the creation thing. I agree, it is a stalemate.
However:
> that leaves us with only one her possibility, the possibility that he was exactly who he said he was
I think there might be another. He could have been deluded. That wouldn't make him insane, there are millions in this world today who suffer delusions; not necessarily a liar either, since he may have really believed it all.
But it is actually the testimony of those left behind after the crucifixion that seems to me to need careful cross-examination.
January 21, 2008 11:51 AM
Yes, but that level of delusion is still mental illness, putting it all in the same vein for me. Deluding oneself into thinking one is better than one is, or prettier or younger is one thing - but a delusion to think you were God - and the level of delusion it would take for men and women to believe it and stake their lives on it - not just the early martrys but those of today as they still exist - that is another matter.
If I thought He, or His followers, those men who wrote the New Testament, were also deluded, you know that I would not follow it. And if I could not trust the whole, I could not trust the part either, for how would I know which part was right and which wrong?
I believe you Brits have a saying, "the proof is in the pudding" - that is yours, correct? And the proof I find is first and formost in my own life. However, you know that as you have read much of my blog.
I suggest that we take this discussion back to my blog as I do not sense welcome here for this conversation. I will answer Mark's last question and then, as Jazzy, with withdraw from the discussion here.
January 21, 2008 12:07 PM
just a quick remark--the Scricture tells us that "the fool has said in his heart that there is no God". Scripture also tells us to "...not answer a fool according to his folly.". Do you see how those two things are inter-related?
January 21, 2008 12:11 PM
Mark, I understand your point, but taken in context, Jesus is addressing a huge crowd when He is speaking, not all whom were believers. Therefore, I do not think the translation of necessity refers only to other believers.
In the Greek as well, there is room for the translation to be more inclusive than just believers, for the word may also be taken to mean physical brothers, countrymen, and other people in general. And this is aside from the matter of sentence structure, which, in different translations separates the last phrase entirely from the others.
I guess my point is WWJD with Maalie? I find only one group of people He willingly and sumarily dismissed and those were the super "religious", not a category Maalie falls in to.
In answer to your previous question of my repentence, it only would have taken a click of your mouse to find out where I stand. It did not seem to me that you really wanted to know, but were only seeking to defend your position and therefore threw scripture out as a barb, not as the Word of Life. What if I had not been a believer; would your words have helped me to see Christ and His loving acceptance more clearly?
Now, I will respectfully withdraw and you will note that I have requested that Maalie do so as well.
January 21, 2008 12:29 PM
Halfmom,
"In answer to your previous question of my repentence,..."
I asked if you preach repentance, not if you have repented.
January 21, 2008 12:35 PM
Susan,
I guess no two situations are ever identical, but rather than speculate too much on WWJD I think we should study about what he actually did and said. He said in
Luke 13:1-5 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
I say this only to point out that Jesus sometimes spoke very frankly and firmly without the sugar coating that our culture seems to want to present Jesus as being. It is very popular to tell unbelievers today that Jesus loves you unconditionally. In my way of thinking that is a way of telling unbelievers to press on and don't change a thing.
January 21, 2008 1:18 PM
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January 21, 2008 5:32 PM
thesarus rex,
You are banned from commenting here. That is final.
January 21, 2008 5:59 PM
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January 22, 2008 4:21 AM
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January 22, 2008 5:32 AM
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January 22, 2008 5:36 AM
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