LOOKING TO PRAISE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

Wednesday, March 05, 2008

Example of the promotion of the secular post-modern world-view!

I read the following article on the Christian Skepticism site by Swordbearer (my pastor) who gave me permission to reprint it here. Within an hour after reading his post, I heard ABC radio news give a report in a 6 minute on the hour newscast which probably has 2 or 3 minutes of commercials. Their report very much mocked the Biblical account of Mount Sinai event with no mention that the professor had absolutely no proof for his assertion. This is a blatant example of agenda based reporting that is put on for the sole purpose of shaping public opinion. My point is that the news media does not have to lie (although they will) to promote their agenda. All that is necessary is the selection of stories that fit their liberal secular world-view. Does anyone really believe ABC would have done a story on a professor offering something in support of the Biblical historical record? The bible and Christianity is under severe attack in our culture and we should be prepared for a major conflict between our Christian world-view and the post-modern secular world-view. Here is the post by Swordbearer..................

Professor Benny Shanon: Israelites Hallucinating at Sinai (Extent Some Will Go to Argue Against the Truth)

In Moses was tripping at Mount Sinai, Professor Benny Shanon, professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, suggests (or asserts) when the people of Israel perceived the voices at Mount Sinai, it was the result of a hallucinatory experience due to partaking of two plants in their religious worship. Shanon's theory suggests "The religious ceremonies of the Israelites included the use of psychotropic materials that can found in the Negev and Sinai." What's interesting is he goes on to state:

"I have no direct proof of this interpretation," and such proof cannot be expected, he says. However, "it seems logical that something was altered in people's consciousness.

Note, in Exodus, there is nothing in the immediate or broader context that suggests the Israelites partook of hallucinatory objects. Not only that, but:
1. The event is recorded as historical,
2. The people are said to have been sanctified for two days (pointing to their purity and consecration),
3. The sound was exceeding loud... so that ALL the people that were in the camp trembled (not just some... i.e., some who were hallucinating)
4. The assertion is that the children of Israel saw (or perceived) that God talked with them "from heaven", not through their own imaginations.
5. The account is referred to by others as both a historical and revelatory event.
6. The event is in perfect keeping with the rest of the unfolding of biblical revelation and redemption.

The point is this...rather than performing proper exegesis, one must come with their own presuppositions ...that this "cannot" mean what it seeks to say ... in order both to connive a theory that the Israelites were partaking of hallinatory plants (when one admits there is no evidence of that, nor can or should one suggest it to be proved).


Blogger Even So... said...

Were all the Egyptians, including Pharoah, also high enough to believe when they were just imaginging the plagues upon them? Wow! That must be some powerful stuff, I mean, to get everyone else high, too! When Moses said, let my people go, and then the events happened, were all of them hight then, and the Red Sea, what of that, these things were not done in isolation...oh and BTW, this researcher has done the same type of drug over 160 times!

You tell me who is high...

March 06, 2008 7:45 AM

Blogger Even So... said...

Oh, I get it, the burning bush, yeah man, that's some good stuff there, man...

March 06, 2008 7:47 AM

Blogger Even So... said...

...friends don't let friends do exegesis while high...

March 06, 2008 7:48 AM

Blogger jazzycat said...

The ABC story really mocked the burning bush story. It is a shame so many people do not even realize they are being manipulated by the media.

March 06, 2008 8:33 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...


I heard this "news" story mentioned on a local conservative afternoon radio talk show yesterday. They only mentioned Moses' theorized drug-induced writing relating to Mt. Sinai and the Law. My initial thought was like JD's. I wondered, well, how does that explain the hundreds of thousands of Israelite slaves getting out of Egypt?

It's good your pastor is addressing these things, equipping the flock to deal with it when they are in the witness field.

March 06, 2008 9:18 AM

Blogger jazzycat said...

Exactly. It is one thing to report the story fairly and quite another to present it in a mocking way. Reagan used to say trust but verify. I believe we should distrust and verify the media.

March 06, 2008 9:32 AM

Blogger Even So... said...

Isaiah 40:8 - The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.


March 06, 2008 10:40 AM

Blogger mark pierson said...

A world in rebellion against its Maker. Man refusing to acknowledge his Maker's very existence.

What lengths man will go to...

March 06, 2008 11:46 AM


Pharaoh's not laughing!

March 06, 2008 12:24 PM

Blogger Daniel said...

If a man walked into a morgue today, and pulled a cold, four day dead body out of that vacuum sealed vault, and prayed before dozens of eye-witnesses , and the man came to life on camera - even still, the vast majority of people would never believe in a million years that this really happened, and would conclude that it was an elaborate hoax.

I am reminded of that somewhat recent viral "UFO" clip on YouTube that was so well done it looked genuine. Even after the author of that video came forward and proved it was all make believe - there were still some people who having already decided that the video was legitimate, refused to believe it was a farce - even when it was undeniably so.

The idea that the Israelites were suffering from collective hallucination is certainly easier for a person to fit into his godless life, than the idea that God spoke from heaven and a whole nation heard the sound of that voice in their ears.

March 06, 2008 12:25 PM

Blogger Maalie said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 06, 2008 2:56 PM

Blogger Maalie said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 06, 2008 3:02 PM

Blogger donsands said...

Good to see you Maalie.

"But you people are quite happy to "connive theories" that fly in the face of verifiable scientific evidence as to how two million pairs of animal species made there way from the far corners of the earth to the Middle East (AND BACK) in order to be saved from a mythical flood!"

I believe that more than they are came about by lightning striking mud, and life begining, and then you have all these animals.

"..even still, the vast majority of people would never believe in a million years that this really happened, and would conclude that it was an elaborate hoax." Dan

Yep, I agree.

Even after Jesus brought Lazarus back to life, the Jews wanted to kill him also.

March 06, 2008 4:29 PM

Blogger jazzycat said...

BAN means to prohibit, forbid, or bar; interdict:

You have been banned from this blog four times..........

March 06, 2008 4:45 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's disgusting. Makes my blood boil if I focus on this kind of stuff too much.

March 07, 2008 9:42 AM

Blogger Maalie said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 07, 2008 10:15 AM

Blogger lorenzothellama said...

It is quite possible to take hallucinatory vegetation by accident. Not that I am saying that Moses. Strong visions can be obtained through various herbs, but this doesn't necessarily make the vision any less real or spiritual.
It has been said that John wrote the book of Revelation after eating mushrooms that grow wild on Patmos. That doesn't make the Book any less powerful.

March 08, 2008 11:15 AM

Blogger donsands said...

"It has been said that John wrote the book of Revelation after eating mushrooms that grow wild on Patmos."

Where did someone come up with John eating mushrooms?

March 08, 2008 11:34 AM

Blogger lorenzothellama said...

I've read it on any number of occasions. Patmos is famous for it's 'magic' mushrooms. What I am trying to say though, is that it doesn't much matter how or why someone has a vision, it is the content of the vision that is important.

I had a very close friend who was a manic-depressive, and when she was ill, and in the manic phase of her illness, she had the most amazing visions. I still remember some of them vividly. Eventually she would 'come down' and then enter the depressive stage of her illness. My friend was very religious and these visions were always of a religious nature, although some of them were frightening, Rivers of Blood and that sort of thing.

I never doubted for one minute her visions. Maybe because she had a mental illness was the reason why she COULD have visions, and maybe because of the mushrooms John could have his. We'll never know, and I don't think it is important.

March 08, 2008 11:41 AM

Blogger Even So... said...

I do think this is important because it underlies (and would undermine) our beliefs about special revelation, in other words, the authority, veracity, and the nature of the inspiration of the scriptures. If Moses was simply high, we might speculate that Jesus' battle with Satan in the wilderness was a vision; brought on by his 40 days of fasting...it could go on and on...

It IS important...why? Because the text doesn't mention it, and if visions were brought about by drugs and hallucination, it would be mentioned, at least in one case, because this would be such a significant detail, but it never is...again, for another example, Peter, when he received the vision on the rooftop about the salvation of the Gentiles, a very significant event, it mentions nothing about any stimulant...

This all goes to the question of the inspiration and veracity of the scriptures, and how we interpret them, and a fallback position of "it doesn't really matter" is not a sufficient answer and it leads to a faltering foundation. Lorenzo, I am glad you claim faith, and I believe you do have it, but you need to mature in that faith. We need to be more surely informed about our faith.

Indeed, Peter, who saw the “vision” of Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, calls that experience a lesser thing than the scriptures, the written Word, what he calls a “more sure word of prophecy”, and he says men writing scripture were moved buy the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:16-21). To suggest drugs moved them and therefore equate that with the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. Not your intent, I trust, but this is where that leads.

The Bible is sufficient and was penned by human authors, yes, as moved by the Holy Spirit. Human and divine element, but not a psychotropic element, otherwise it would have been mentioned, somewhere. You don't have to "get high" to hear from On High...

March 08, 2008 12:11 PM

Blogger lorenzothellama said...

Even so: I was just pointing out that John might not have known he had eaten 'magic' mushrooms, or Moses that he had eaten some kind of herbs that would give him visions. I am sure they would not have done it on purpose. I just feel that it doesn't matter whether they did or didn't, as it makes no difference to the subject of the vision itself.
It's only a very minor point, just out of interest only, and as I say, I don't feel it is important.

March 08, 2008 12:15 PM

Blogger Maalie said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 08, 2008 3:14 PM

Blogger Even So... said...

I "see" what you are saying, but think about why I have said it IS important, because it has to deal with scripture itself, and whether we can trust that revelation. This would be a very important item. The Bible talks of being sober minded. What of tribal cultures that have visions based on smoking a peace pipe? How can they trust what they see when they are high? Other people get high and have visions; are these to be on par with scripture? How would we judge such things? Will we have to always be looking for these types of things, or can we know we have sufficient revelation in the scripture, revealed by the Holy Ghost not hallucinogens?

We are not just talking about visions, but scripture writing visions and that makes how they were received extremely important the bible say the secret things belong to the Lord but the secret isn’t psychotropic. You are confusing religion and revelation, the spiritual with the sacred. Actually this is superstition, not true spirituality. Nowhere does God tell us to get high and so for Him to consistently reveal Himself for the purposes of writing scripture while people were in that state would be to cause inconsistency in His character, and we cannot do that. Yes God can act despite our sin, He does frequently, but to suggest that it doesn’t matter and further, that they needed to be high to hear from On High is a gross error.

March 08, 2008 3:51 PM

Blogger Even So... said...

Not that you are insisting on these things, Lo, but that this is where it leads to...pluralism and revelation from all quarters to those who have seen a vision...from whence the vision, the Holy Spirit or hallucinogens?

March 08, 2008 3:55 PM

Blogger donsands said...

Well done JD. Very sound words indeed.

Have a wonderful Lord's day.

March 08, 2008 4:05 PM

Blogger Seattle Boy said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

March 08, 2008 4:14 PM

Blogger lorenzothellama said...

Oh yes I agree with you absolutely. I don't think I actually said they WERE high, just that IF they were, I didn't think it mattered!
Anyway, the Bible means different things to different people. There are many different translations, connotations and whether you believe in parables or whether you believe things are meant to be taken literally etc. etc.
Good night, it's time for bed in the UK.

March 08, 2008 5:48 PM

Blogger jazzycat said...

Theologians interpret allegory, parables, poetic, historical, and literal passages differently. One thing that is not acceptable is for one to take literal passages that one dislikes and claim they are parables. For example, Romans 1 is clearly to be taken literally.

Some want to discount this truth in many ways including Barack Obama who said, “I don't think it [a same-sex union] should be called marriage, but I think that it is a legal right that they should have that is recognized by the state," said Obama. "If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans."

First of all the Sermon on the Mount does not affirm his view, and Romans 1 is hardly an obscure passage and it most certainly refutes his view. It may be in his mind and affirmed by false teachers in his faith, but it just that a false teaching. He and his “faith” may not like the teaching of Romans 1, but it is consistent with all of Scripture and is true whether they believe it or not.

Other literal teachings such as the deity of Christ, the resurrection, penal substitution, and Biblical miracles to name a few are denied by many who claim to be Christian. Biblical truth is not relative to what a person thinks it means, but is an absolute truth. When I view a Biblical truth wrong, it is not my view or my faith’s truth, but it is my believing an untruth. Barack Obama claimed a truth for his faith. If it is true for his faith, then it is true period. If it is false, then it is false for his faith as well. This gobbly gook about relative truth is nonsense.

March 08, 2008 7:09 PM

Blogger Maalie said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 09, 2008 3:46 AM

Blogger lorenzothellama said...

"One thing that is not acceptable is for one to take literal passages that one dislikes and claim they are parables. For example, Romans 1 is clearly to be taken literally"

About literal truth. I have just come back from Mass and the Gospel reading today was the raising of Lazarus. This got me thinking about 'the resurection of the body'.

Are we meant to take this literally? (Resurection of the body, not the raising of Lazarus). Up until relatively recently Catholics were not allowed to be cremated as there would be no body for the resurection at The End of the World. Now Catholics are allowed to be cremated. What has changed? Are the Catholics becoming less strict in their interpretation of scripture or isn't the resurection of the body scriptual after all.

I would very much like to know what Calvinists believe on this subject.

March 09, 2008 6:15 AM

Blogger Baptist Girl said...

The Bible actually does not give any specific teaching about cremation, the fact that a body has been cremated does not make it any more difficult for God to resurrect a body. The bodies of Christians who died a thousand years ago have, by now, completely turned into dust. This will in no sense prevent God from being able to resurrect their bodies. Cremation does nothing but “expedite” the process of turning a body into dust. God is equally able to raise a person’s remains that have been cremated as He is the remains of a person who was not cremated. The question of burial or cremation is within the realm of Christian freedom. A person, or a family, considering this issue should pray for wisdom (James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.) and follow the conviction that results.

March 09, 2008 8:42 AM

Blogger jazzycat said...

Are we meant to take this literally? (Resurection of the body, not the raising of Lazarus).

This is presented in many places as a real event rather than allegory or symbolic language. It was real for Lazarus, Jesus, and will be real for human beings.

March 09, 2008 9:50 AM


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