I'm in good company with my take on John 8:30-32
Here is Ryrie's comment on John 8:31-"believed". Likely only a profession because of what they said in verse 33.
Ryrie Study Bible (KJV), page 1604
Here is what J. Vernon McGee said about John 8:31-32 - Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone. It will produce something. After a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will want to "continue in His Word." The proof of faith is continuing with the Savior.
THRU THE BIBLE, with J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 4, page 419
Labels: Chaferian theology
posted by mark pierson at 6:24 AM
28 Comments:
Very good company indeed. Some of the Jews believed but many didn't. Those who were true believers are described in v. 31. Those who didn't are also described in this passage. In the plain reading here it is not hard to distinguish between the two. Verse 31 clearly makes a distinction that not all believed.
Mark,
I will return to photo devotionals on Romans at Jazzycat later today. Unborn babies and our freedom took a big hit in this election, but I must press on with a focus on Christ. This does not mean that I will not oppose and fight (lawfully) the ungodly and unrighteous leadership that has just been elected in America.
November 05, 2008 8:43 AM
Hi Mark,
OK, it's over now :~(
I knew John McCain was not the right candidate for the republicans - that is one reason why I was so dissapointed back during the primaries when I blogged about it. Oh well.
My two oldest children cried last night. They are very pro-life. I told them that all we can do now is pray that God will help Obama and the other leaders of our nation to see that abortion is wicked. Maybe HE will. Let us pray pray pray.
Jazzy,
I have thoughts to share regarding the passage that you left on another post here days ago, but I am so swamped with work and a husband on vacation this week. I will try to get back to it in the next few days. Also - with this post of yours, Mark. I have some things to say, but I want to be more thoughtful and deliberate than I have time for just now. I will try to get back to it soon.
Let me just say this: maybe we should poll all the christians and see how they vote in regards to this passage and then let that determine the reigning interpretation. heehee (just a little poor post-election humor)
God bless.
November 05, 2008 9:56 AM
Rose, friends try to pull friends from what they see as trouble. This is a deliberate attempt by me to pull a dear friend of mine from an unbiblical system. This reflects what was McGee's position, and also mine, and is impossible to refute: "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone. It will produce something. After a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will want to "continue in His Word."
November 05, 2008 10:43 AM
Rose, I have said it elsewhere, so now I can call it an old adage, never the less it seems true:
You cannot hope to get the liberal vote when you run a weak liberal against a strong one, and you likewise cannot expect to get the conservative vote if you run a weak liberal against a strong one...
Our prayers up north are that God grabs hold of Obama.
November 05, 2008 10:56 AM
In these verses it is clear that the Lord is equating discipleship with the reception of eternal life. To be clear discipleship DOES NOT bring about salvation; on the other hand it seems from these verses that discipleship is the necessary result of the reception of eternal life.
November 05, 2008 12:01 PM
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November 06, 2008 4:31 AM
Impersonating Jazzycat, eh? it doesn't speak well of your character. But then I've come to expect such things from those who hate their Creator and future Judge.
November 06, 2008 6:42 AM
United Kingdom Dunstable, Bedfordshire
November 06, 2008 7:25 AM
Spot on Mark.
Did God tell you?
By the way, we do not hate the creator. How can you hate something that doesn't exist? We simply feel sorry for deluded people.
November 06, 2008 7:35 AM
Jim,
Are you a college professor? Why such childish games?
November 06, 2008 7:52 AM
I'll leave your comments up here so that people can see how a college professor can act like a child.
November 06, 2008 7:56 AM
Folks, ya wanna see who is impersonating Jazzycat? Go to -
http://www.blogger.com/profile/13444125754967223180
November 06, 2008 7:59 AM
Hi Mark,
You have posted a comment from JVM on John 8:31-32. Thank you. I always enjoy McGee. I think it is interesting that he quotes Calvin (or Beza or whoever [is has been determined to be who] said "faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.") I don't know if you remember, but I really think that is a yucky quote! :~P
Anyways, I would just like to show how McGee finished his paragraphs on this passage... right out of the same book and on the same page and in the same column that you got your quote from. :~) I might not like the quote that McGee begins his comments with, but I sure agree with the way he developed his comments on these verses.
... The truth shall make you free. The truth is that Jesus is the Savior of the world. He is the Truth. First we come to Him as our Savior. Then as we go on with Him, we know by experience that we are free. We are free from the penalty of sin - we don't need to lie awake at night worrying about going to hell. He doesn't even ask us to live the Christian life. He asks us to trust Him and let Him live His life through us. When we yield to Him, we are free. THRU THE BIBLE, with J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 4, page 419
I tend to think that McGee -in that last sentence when he says "we"- he is speaking of Christians, the already converted. When we yield to Him, we are free. I agree with the latter part of his comments on these verses very much and I think it really gets to the heart of where you and I see these passages and the like differently. I see that people "experience" salvation by walking with Christ. We know we are free, we know we are saved *experientially* by continuing with Him, by discipling with Him. A person who receives Christ and then goes on to live a life not as a disciple has no experience to look on and be re-affirmed. I think these people do have doubts *experientially* and the way to experientially know that you have been born of God is by being a disciple of God and allowing Him to teach you and live through you by yeilding to Him.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
I think the main difference is that you think a person cannot thwart this work of God, while I believe that we can and do often. As McGee said: When we yield to Him, we are free. If we don't yeild to Him, we expereince no freedom, even though we may be free from the penalty of sin. The freedom of the expereince of sin is something we have to be a disciple to be experiencing.
But even then, I think you and I would agree, that no person this side of heaven is going to *fully* know the freedom from sin in our lives experientially. We sin. We can *begin* to know that freedom, though, by walking with Him... and by continuing is His word... and by being His disciple indeed... and by knowing the truth more and more...
November 07, 2008 9:10 AM
Mark,
I have been rapt with John 8 for almost two weeks now. I can't get my mind off of it.
I have something to post on it if I could only find the time. Maybe later this morning or today. Thanks to Ten Cent for bringing it up and to you for keeping it in the spotlight on your blog. (Even though we see it differently). It is an awesome passage.
November 07, 2008 9:13 AM
BTW,
If Maalie is bothering your blog, pray for him that he would come to his senses. He is hanging around here for some reason. I will pray that he would get a glimpse of the power of Jesus Christ just by being exposed to the words of Him who spoke as no other man ever spoke.
Christ loved and cared for people just like him... and dealt with them often... and people like you and me too.
November 07, 2008 9:17 AM
Rose, dear sister, you may not like how McGee quoted Calvin, or Beza, if you will, BUT, he did. Here it is again: ""Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone. It will produce something. After a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will want to "continue in His Word."". Now you took the time to finish off his paragraph on that page. The thoughts within that part of the paragraph that you quoted express L/S thinking perfectly. Please do not imagine a difference. Here it is again: "... The truth shall make you free. The truth is that Jesus is the Savior of the world. He is the Truth. First we come to Him as our Savior. Then as we go on with Him, we know by experience that we are free. We are free from the penalty of sin - we don't need to lie awake at night worrying about going to hell. He doesn't even ask us to live the Christian life. He asks us to trust Him and let Him live His life through us. When we yield to Him, we are free. THRU THE BIBLE, with J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 4, page 419"
Rose, in your attempt to throw out his opening thoughts at the outset are you not taking what he actually said and refashoning it? You altered his commentary on this verse and took away the WHOLE of his train of thought here. Note again as he said, as you have provided:"Then as we go on with Him, we know by experience that we are free." Put this together with what he said earlier: "After a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will want to "continue in His Word." What McGee is saying when one considers the whole of his thought here is that one *WILL* yield to Christ; and as we yield, which we will do because, as says McGee, "he will want to continue in His Word", then we go on to experience the freedom. We should leave his thinking is undivided here. Thanks for the visit.
Mark
November 07, 2008 11:16 AM
McGee's thinking is clear: We will WANT to obey - we WILL obey, and thus go on to experience the freedom in Christ.
November 07, 2008 11:21 AM
Take note also where McGee says, "He asks us to trust Him and let Him live His life through us."
Again, L/S would agree for we say that He works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. His Spirit leads the true saint, Romans 8:14. That is the whole point of God's design for Christianity - to bring about a people led of His Spirit. See also Romans 7:4-6.
November 07, 2008 11:31 AM
Here we see the contrast in soterologies: The Classic Dispensational versus the Reformed. The one presents salvation as a ticket to Heaven while the other says that God has a purpose for His saints also on THIS side of the grave - to be indwelt by and led by His Spirit. There is no indication in all of scripture that His plan could be totally thwarted by any true saint, none.
November 07, 2008 11:36 AM
Hi Mark.
Look, I know that McGee said some things that I don't really embrace. I am not trying to "refashion" what he said. I listened to the man for a long time and read through all of his commentaries. There are things he would say that made it sound like he was LS, but plenty of others which were the reverse.
All I am saying is that I appreciate the ending part of his comments. I am not trying to "re-fashion" his thoughts. I think it is wonderful that we don't have to lie awake at night wondering if we are going to hell or not. It is because the basis of our knowledge of heaven is upon CHRIST, not upon our own transformation, even though our own transformation helps us (and the world, by the way) to know that we are His disciples.
Whatever. I don't have to agree with McGee on everything. So what? :~) He quoted that Calvin quip. Oh well. :~)
Actually, let me say I can agree with the quote for a moment in this sense:
The faith that saves is not alone because salvation causes a person to be born again and they now have the life of God dwelling in them and the power that rose Christ from the dead is now living inside of them. So right - faith isn't alone... and the born-again person isn't alone. We have the spirit of God.
November 07, 2008 12:28 PM
So let that put a kibosh on this last comment of yours:
Here we see the contrast in soterologies: The Classic Dispensational versus the Reformed. The one presents salvation as a ticket to Heaven while the other says that God has a purpose for His saints also on THIS side of the grave - to be indwelt by and led by His Spirit.
CDs don't think that salvation is a "ticket to heaven" and that God has no purpose for the Christian beyond that. Who has ever said that? He desires the very best for and out of His children. I think God has many purposes (!) beyond salvation. The CD most decisively recognizes that we see that God has many purposes on this earth, beyond just the salvation of souls.
We love you Mark. God bless. You take the last word on this here, and I will post on my blog what I wanted to ... sometime. If you don't comment there... then I will come and post it here as a comment.
November 07, 2008 12:35 PM
You said: Again, L/S would agree for we say that He works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.
I also say that He works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. The Bible says this. Of course I agree. :~)
November 07, 2008 12:36 PM
You said:
There is no indication in all of scripture that His plan could be totally thwarted by any true saint, none.
I do believe you are wrong on that one, but I don't have time to reference presently, although it seems we have covered this ground before.
Have a good day at work.
November 07, 2008 12:38 PM
I agree with your assessment that McGee says that the true saint WILL WANT to. He said these kinds of things alot. I think in most cases they will want to too, at some point.
I guess the big difference in our understanding is... of what is possible verses what is probable.
What do you think? Is that a fair estimation?
November 07, 2008 12:43 PM
Rose, when I look at Ephesians chapter 2 I see before me God's plan for the saint on this side of the grave. It begins with raw material such as is dead in trespasses and sins, and ends being a temple of God, a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. God's ultimate goal this side of the grave is seen here. It is God's desire to live among, yea, even within His People - 1 Cor.3:16-17 - This is where our systems clash. The Reformed see that God's ultimate goal for the redeemed this side of the grave is to be a dwelling place, a temple of God the Holy Spirit - temple that is continually being transformed into the image of God's Son. Yes, practical sanctification is a necessary result of having been made alive with Christ, and of being built into a temple, a habitation of God's Spirit.
With much respect,
Your brother in Christ, and friend,
Mark
November 08, 2008 11:38 AM
OK, I finally got around to posting what I wanted to say to you about this. Also some thoughts from a commentator.
God willing, Jazzycat, I will also find that question about that passage you asked me about and answer it yet this mroning.
I have been so busy. We have about 25 tall trees in our yard and they all dropped their leaves in the last week.
November 10, 2008 10:28 AM
Mark you said:
The Reformed see that God's ultimate goal for the redeemed this side of the grave is to be a dwelling place, a temple of God the Holy Spirit - temple that is continually being transformed into the image of God's Son.
Classical Dispensationalists and Free Gracers also see that as God's desire for the redeemed this side of the grave.
November 10, 2008 10:44 AM
My good friend says - "Classical Dispensationalists and Free Gracers also see that as God's desire for the redeemed this side of the grave."
If we scan Eph.2 we see a settled reality. There is no gap suggested here of positional truth versus actual. THAT is the difference in our systems. One systems can say 'well, maybe not' for some believers, while another system does not in Eph.2 see a possibility that some may not experience the truths therein.
November 10, 2008 11:31 AM
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