LOOKING TO PRAISE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

Wednesday, December 17, 2008

In Antonio's own words

Antonio has affirmed agreement to the following statement he made on another blog………

"If it is true that your eternity can be absolutely secure no matter what your behavior is (past, present, or future), then you can get fire-insurance and live like the devil."

If this were true it would logically follow that such a person would have to be unaffected by regeneration, which Paul calls being a new creation in Christ. Such a person would have to be unaffected by the indwelling Holy Spirit in contradiction to what Paul says in Romans 8. It would also mean that Jesus’ prayer in John 17 would have to go unanswered. It would have to mean that none of the fruit of the Spirit of Galatians 5 would change such a person. It would mean that the works of the flesh in Galatians 5 (through which Paul says no one will inherit the Kingdom of Go) would prevail in such a person.

What are your thoughts? Is it possible for someone to come to faith in Jesus Christ and have absolutely no change in behavior even if they a live a long life in this world?


Blogger jazzycat said...

This debate is not about the free gift of eternal life that is secured in the instant someone comes to faith in Christ. No, the debate is about the power of regeneration and the power of Holy Spirit in sanctification. There is absolutely no argument with Antonio on justification.

The time frame from the moment of justification until the death of a believer is what the debate is about............

December 17, 2008 9:30 AM

Blogger mark pierson said...

I just invited Antonio on as a contributor here at Blue-Collar blog. Buckle your seatbelts, it's gonna be one whale of a ride!

December 17, 2008 2:30 PM

Blogger mark pierson said...

another gem from the keyboard of Colin Maxwell (used WITHOUT his permission)...

Hi Antonio:

The last thing I want to do today is open up another front with you on another blog. Suffice to say that I have given several quotes from Harry Ironside over in my latest reply to you on Rose’s site. They constitute the 58th posting and weigh in at: 12/17/2008 4:48 AM

The main quote is as follows:

“People say, “I see you believe in that old Baptist doctrine of ‘once in grace, always in grace.’” Or another says, “I understand you hold that old Presbyterian idea of ‘the final perseverance of the saints.’” I do not know why this should be called either Baptist or Presbyterian, only to the extent that Baptists and Presbyterians agree with the Book, and the Word of God clearly shows that once God takes us up in grace nothing can separate us from the love of Christ so that evidently the expression, “once in grace, always in grace,” is a perfectly correct one. But, on the other hand, I am not so enthusiastic about the other expression, “the perseverance of the saints.” I believe in it; I believe that all saints--all really belonging to God--will persevere to the end, for the Book tells me, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13), and if a man starts out and makes a profession but gives it all up, he will never be saved, because he was never born again to begin with, he was never truly changed by grace divine. On the other hand, the reason he endures to the end is not because of any particular perseverance of his own. What I believe in, and what the Word of God clearly teaches, is the perseverance of the Holy Spirit. When He begins a work, He never gives up until it is completed. That is our confidence.”

I agree with Ironside 100%. I don’t particularly share his lack of enthusiasm for the term “perseverance of the saints.” I note that he believes in it, so I won’t quibble over words.


Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:54:00 AM

December 17, 2008 2:36 PM

Blogger Celestial Fundie said...

Antonio has expressed agreement with Bob Wilkin who claims that it is almost impossible for a person to be born again without showing some changes.

December 17, 2008 6:27 PM

Blogger mark pierson said...

Antonio said...

I would be honored to become a part of your blog. I think I would be of great benefit to your blog!

Let me know:




December 16, 2008 11:28 PM

December 17, 2008 6:54 PM

Blogger jazzycat said...

Why is almost impossible?

December 18, 2008 9:57 AM

Blogger Looker4522 said...

"What are your thoughts? Is it possible for someone to come to faith in Jesus Christ and have absolutely no change in behavior even if they a live a long life in this world?"

Looker: FYI,I am generally in agreement with the free-grace view which is well presented by the GES. Regarding this question, I would first wonder who is the observer/decider regarding whether or not any change, no matter how large or how small, has taken place. Is this a human "outside" of the one being observed or evaluated? Or is it the human himself/herself who is the observer/decider? Or is it God who is doing the observing/deciding?

I doubt any human other than the individual himself/herself would be qualified to say whether or not a change has occurred. However, even we ourselves can have blinders on concerning our own behaviors and attitudes. Have you ever been misread or misunderstood by someone? Have you even had something revealed to you that you hadn't cognitively noted in your life? We all have the potential to fail in accurately observing even ourselves. But were does this imperfection lead us - to throw up our hands in agnostic angst?

I wouldn't say so. If that were the case, my statements regarding making errors in assessment would themselves be subject to agnostic thought and thus create a incoherent circle of reasoning.

I think it is reasonable to assume that someone can and will assess their own behavior and life accurately and determine whether or not some change has occurred. However, it is certainly reasonable to consider the opinions of others as they may see things we have missed, but their input is limited in usefulness.

I do not think a regenerated individual will lead a completely unchanged life. The presence of the life of God (eternal life) and the Spirit of God in their life would lead to a consciousness and conviction of sin. This will affect their experience of comfort or rather discomfort in the practice of any type of wayward lifestyle. This impact on one's comfort will affect their thinking when they consider their actions and ramifications. The thinking might be quite deep, prolonged and even puzzling. The individual may respond to this mental experience by verbalizing it, writing it, acting out in some appropriate fashion or maybe act out in an apparently unrelated way. Perhaps they will just continue to work it over in their minds. The discomfort one might feel might be dealt with by alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, jogging, vacations, church attendance, praying or Bible reading. However, it will most certainly be dealt with, therefore the behavior of the individual will have changed in some fashion.

The change will not necessarily be "visible" to outsiders and maybe not even to the individual themselves. One may think that new thought patterns or feelings of guilt or disatisfaction are not actually behavioral changes and therefore might reply with a "NO" when questioned as to whether or not their behavior has changed since being saved.

Those are just a few thoughts I had. I don't actually do a lot of posting, so I may not get back here again for a few days to answer something asked of me. Thank you for the opportunity to post here.

December 19, 2008 12:12 AM

Blogger mark pierson said...

The change is to be observed by the world. Ephesians 2:10 states that we are His work of art (poema), created unto good works. On display here is the Spitit's working in the lives of those once dead in trespasses and sins. It is an on going experience (2 Cor. 3:18). The regeneration experience itself, plus both Christ's intercession and God the Holy Spirit's intercession, along with the Father's chastening, which is ALWAYS effectual (Hebrews 12:5-11). In short it is a fail-safe working of God in the life of the believer. Thanks for stopping by.

December 19, 2008 6:29 AM

Blogger jazzycat said...

Thanks for answering....

I do not think a regenerated individual will lead a completely unchanged life. The presence of the life of God (eternal life) and the Spirit of God in their life would lead to a consciousness and conviction of sin.

That is a no. So we now have one no and one qualified yes.

December 19, 2008 8:37 AM

Blogger Lou Martuneac said...

Hello Mark:

Earlier in this thread I noted that Looker4522 made this comment- FYI, I am generally in agreement with the free-grace view which is well presented by the GES.

That comment may give some the false impression that the GES is the voice of the Free Grace community. This is a serious misnomer that I want to address as I have in the past when GES men have tried to portray the late Zane Hodges or Bob Wilkin and GES as if they are the voice of the overall FG community. I want to dispel this misnomer being spread by some Grace Evangelical Society members.

The misnomer, and it is a major misnomer, is that GES is the voice of the Free Grace (FG) movement in general. The GES has in fact become a shrinking cell of extremists that have fallen into the trap of the late Zane Hodges’s “Crossless” interpretation of the Gospel. This “contrary doctrine” of Hodges and Bob Wilkin’s “Crossless/Deityless” interpretation of the Gospel has been the cause of “division and offences” in the FG camp and churches. (Rom. 16:17-18).

The unusual teachings of Hodges is what has come to be known and accurately defined as the Crossless Gospel, also known as “REDEFINED Free Grace Theology” and the “Promise Only Gospel.” It is largely because of GES’s reductionist assaults on the content of saving faith many men in the Free Grace community have separated from GES and do not want their name or ministry to be identified with the GES.

Exposure of the egregious errors of Hodges, Wilkin, John Niemela, Rene Lopez, and certain lesser known followers of Hodgism theology has put GES in cardiac arrest. The egregious reductionist heresy of GES has almost totally isolated it outside any relevant discussion of the Gospel.

The reductionist errors of Hodges, Wilkin and GES are most stark when comparing the new GES Affirmation of Belief to the previous version.

May I share this article with your guests, Is “ReDefined” Free Grace Theology- Free Grace Theology? The article will help them understand that the GES and especially Antonio da Rosa (aka: Sock Puppet: fg me) do not speak for and do NOT represent the general population of men who identify themselves as members of the Free Grace community.

The Free Grace community has been fractured, and it is a good fracture in that large numbers of FG men have withdrawn from GES over the Hodges/Wilkin “Crossless” interpretation of the Gospel. Lord willing not one more unsuspecting believer will fall into the trap of the Crossless gospel.


December 19, 2008 10:36 AM

Blogger mark pierson said...

Thanks, Lou!

December 19, 2008 1:04 PM

Blogger Lou Martuneac said...

No problem, just want to do what I can to restrain the Crossless gospel of GES from making any new inroads.


December 20, 2008 12:58 PM

Blogger James Lush said...

Its been awhile, but it's New Year's Day and I am up early checking mail and cruising my usual blogs.

I have wrestled with this for many years, possibly due to a time in my christian walk when I was terribly back slidden and possibly due to what we Christians think a Christian life should look like.

Without a doubt when God regenerates us we are born again, given a new heart and that is forever, never to be lost. The issue is sanctification at least from a practical aspect. I think we Christians judge too fast and too quick and attempt to play God in other peoples lives.

I am reminded of Jesus' own words:
"And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." - Mark 4:20

Jesus tells us that when the seed finds good grown, it brings forth fruit, some 30, some 60 and some 100.

Could that same seed not bring forth good fruit, say some 99, some 20 and possibly believe it or not, some 2.

When God saves somebody, He saves forever and it is God that looks at the fruit by His standard and by His eye, not ours. We are so quick to judge according to our standards. I don't know about you but my standard is often flawed.

I believe in all my heart that a person who is truly regenerated will grow, how far and how fast is up to God and them.

January 01, 2009 5:42 AM


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