Does Jesus clearly define disciples as believers?

In the great commission Jesus said:

Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

It is clear that our orders from Jesus are to make disciples, baptize them, and teach them to obey. In short Jesus is commanding us to make disciples that are baptized believers. He then instructs us to teach them to be obedient of his commands. Therefore, it seems from this very well know passage that Jesus is commanding us to make one call in evangelism. The one call is to salvation and discipleship. Jesus does not distinguish between the two.

Mark (Bluecollar) made this point in a debate thread on another blog when he said: “Scriptures like Matt.10:34-39, and Mark 10:13-31 show that the call to salvation, and the call to discipleship are one.”

And yet a follower of the Free Grace movement of Zane Hodges said the following: “if the biblical distinction between being "born" into God's family and the subsequent life of discipleship is not recognized, what results is "utter confusion" when it comes to evangelizing unbelievers. The consequences of this confusion can be devastating, not only for unbelievers but for believers as well.”

Who is right? Was Jesus right to command that we make disciples and baptize them as believers and then teach them to obey? Or, should we offer them the gift of eternal life without mentioning discipleship or giving them instruction on the call to obedience that Jesus gives in the above passage? Did Jesus command us to do something that results in utter confusion or was he the way, the truth, and the life?

Also: Should we believe that people are so stupid that they cannot handle the two concepts of justification by faith alone and a life of discipleship without being thrown into utter confusion?

Questions from Romans 8 ????? Welcome goe and Alvin!!!

Romans 8:9 says the following:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

QUESTION! Can anyone without the indwelling Spirit be saved?

Romans 8:14 says the following:
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

QUESTIONS!
1) Is it a characteristic of all of the sons of God to be led by the Spirit of God or is it possible for some to totally reject the leading of the Holy Spirit?
2) Is it possible to be saved and not be a son of God?

Welcome goe and Alvin!!!

Folks, it seems the GES is up to its old tricks of misrepresenting the Lordship position again by saying that L/S teaches salvation by works. I've challenged these brave souls to come on over to provide a direct quote from an L/S teacher that states salvation by works.

Gary,Lordship states very clearly that one is born again instantly when they believe in Jesus. Can you or Alvin produce for me a direct quote from a lordship teacher that states that one is saved by works? I'm am sure that your attempts to do so would be the result of "massaging" the quote just a tad. It would seem that that is the only way the GES position can keep itself alive.

Once a Member of Blue Collar Blog, Always a Member

Folks, Jim Lush is having a terrible time with severe head-aches and the doctors are at a loss to know why. Please pray for him.

Mark

So lemme ask some questions

If a political party claims to be reaching out to all Americans, then a former President from that party indicates in an email the desire to have such a large majority in the Senate that the minority has absolutely no voice - well, is that really reaching out to all Americans?

If I work for a machine-tool shop where the CEO and vice presidents within that company make over $250,000, and they start having to pay higher taxes, what is the likelihood that in order to save their profits they start layoff's in order to cut production costs? Would such layoff's limit their ability to expand product lines?

And what of the company's we service; won't they have layoff's too? Won't our machine orders begin to dry up, resulting in yet more layoff's?

A small note: for all you lazy anti corporate America types out there - I once worked for a company for twenty-two years. That company sold the division that I worked for to an over-sea's outfit. I ended up on the unemployment lines, staring out the window while in said lines wondering where I was going to get a job. All the while I understood why the company sold the division. It was a business move and necessary for their survival. Except for occasional short-lived bouts of resentment I can easily say that I am not anti-corporate America.

So please, let's keep it a favorable climate for even large companies to stay in America, and able to turn out whopping earnings. When they do so we all benefit.

Mark the Plater

A New Covenant Critque Of Dispensationalism

Folks, I 've come across a paper that I would suggest you read. Here it is: http://www.firstbaptistparker.org/documents/PDisp1.pdf

I have many problems with Classic Dispensationalism. The author of the above paper is very articulate and concise. He spells out many of the problems that I find with the "Normative Dispensational" approach to interpretting scripture.

In short, I believe that the arrival of classic dispensationalism changed the character of Christianity in that it presents the Gospel essentially as a ticket to heaven. That is only part of the accomplishment of Christ's cross-work.

In the Old Testament God sought a people to represent Himself to the nations. The people He chose to do this through was the nation of Israel. The command to Pharoh was to "let My people go that they may serve Me". Serving Him was the whole reason why the nation was to exist. But they broke the covenant He made with them for His Law was holy, and their flesh was weak.

Enter the New Covenant. It is based on the "I wills" of God. In the New Covenant God indwells, leads, enables, and empowers His people to walk in His ways. Now He has a people to represent Himself to the world - a people who will serve Him. And He gets all the glory, for, look at the raw materials He had to work with in bringing such a people into existence.

"...the saints will judge the world."

by Ten Cent Three and a half miles

"...the saints will judge the world."
For some, this statement from 1 Corinthians 6:2 indicates a reward to which the faithful believer can look forward. For them, it's a reward that is either won or lost according to the believers life. Have they done good or bad? Have they been faithful enough? Have they done too much evil?But what's interesting to me is that even though Paul is addressing some very significant issues, he doesn't use the threat of loss of this privilege in the kingdom to come as means to correct their behavior. To what does Paul direct their attention?

In verse 9 of the same chapter (6), Paul does point them to the kingdom. He says, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?" And then lists out some pretty ugly sins. And he says those people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Was Paul indicting them? No, because in verse 11, he reminds them that that is what some of them were. What makes the difference? What's the difference between the covetous and these believers who were wronging and defrauding their brothers in Christ? Paul says what the difference is. He reminds them of the gospel. He says, "but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."Wow, that's powerful. He points to their sin and says it's sin. And then he points them to Christ, the source of their righteousness. And in verse 14 he gives us more powerful hope. "Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power." What a great promise.

And he reminds the believers of somethings else in verse 15. He reminds them that our bodies are members of Christ. And then he reveals to us why immorality is such a heinous sin.

And he says, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God..." A great truth, of which much can and has been said, but lets look at his closing statement to this argument against immorality."...and that you are not your own?" This is a statement that many do not like to hear. We want to be masters of our destinies. We want to be the one to call the shots, but Paul tells us that we have a master, and we are not that master. Verse 20 says why God is our master, "For you have been bought with a price". Paul, once again, points us back to the gospel. We were bought.

Peter talks about what we were bought with in 1 Peter 1:18,19. He says that we were redeemed, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with precious blood, the blood of Christ. What a hefty price. What an amazing price for the Creator of the universe to pay for someone like me.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:20, therefore glorify God in your body. How interesting that he's not using the argument that we should glorify God in our bodies because we might lose the reward of higher seat in the supreme court of heaven, but shore up his argument with the rock solid foundation of Christ's death and resurrection. He points us back to the master.That's where our assurance is. That's where our security rests. Praise God, that if your faith is in Christ, you are not your own. You were bought. Bought with the precious blood of Christ. Your sins are forgiven and you can look forward to that blessed hope of the resurrection. Now go and sin no more, glorify God in your body.

One of them nights

I usually get home from work at about 11:30 PM. After some supper I delve into my devotional reading which takes me till about 1:30 or 2:00 AM. Then it's off to La, La Land.

Well, last night my trip into La, La Land lasted only untill 3:30. Yup, I was the only one awake. I could hear both my wife and my son snoring away. My daughter? She just groans periodically. She's done that since she was a new-born. It was just me alone. There was the sound of ticking from our grand-father clock that kept me aware that my sleep period was passing me by.

Oh, to get back to sleep. But it wasn't to be. I could be like some people, and be spiritual enough to use the time wisely and to pray; but I wasn't feeling particularly spiritual. Nope, I just layed there wondering about things.

I did, however, spend some of the time dwelling on the L/S versus the Free Grace debate. I am L/S, but I do differ with MacArthur on some of the issues.

One place I disagree with MacArthur is on his take of 2 Cor. 13:5. I've covered this ground before. I will not go again over that ground. Suffice it to say that I do not believe that this is a challenge for all Christians to examine their standing before God. I lean more heavily towards "objective assurance" (assurance based on biblical promises) than I do "subjective assurance" (assurance based on observation of the Spirit's work in your life). Don't get me wrong here. I believe that the regeneration experience INEVITABLY results in a changed life. But, what I believe to be MacArthur's wrong stand on 2 Cor.13:5 leads to morbid introspection. And, other than when false teachers infiltrated the church with gnosticism and docitism, I don't see the early church worrying about assurance, or whether or not they were regenerate. That seems to be a by-product of British 17th century Puritanism.

I know that many Reformed will disagree with me here. So be it. I've been down that alley of self examination before. I ALWAYS came up short. Just how much fruit is enough for one to gain assurance. With Christ as the standard, well....

There, now that the Reformed have disowned me, and I am not at all in agreement with the so called free gracer's, well...

Then I went on to think about The Four Tops. They lost their lead singer last Friday. http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/chi-levi-stubbs-1021oct21,0,3199993.story. Their music was always so pleasant, yea, so powerful, to listen to. I'll miss Levi and that special group that really knew how to put poetry to music. What a loss. Thanks, guys, for such beautiful music.

The Beatitudes

I swiped this from Gayla's blog. Here she sums up what they are all about...

"The beatitudes

Quite simply, the beatitudes characterize the true believer. They are virtues that mark the Christian. As God continues His sanctifying work, He builds these character qualities in us so that we might be holy as He is holy, that we might live in obedience to Him and in turn, be blessed. They also show us what true repentence looks like. Jesus began His ministry (Matt 4:17) by preaching and saying, "Repent, for the kingdome of heaven is at hand," then, after calling His disciples, he began teaching them:Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.Blessed are the meek (gentle), for they shall inherit the earth.Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied."

Amen, Gayla! I'm sorry that a certain system places the beatitudes as something for another people for another time. Sad. Indeed, an atrocity. That practice subtracts a portion of the Word of God from the Holy Spirit's tool-box in His effort to conform each believer to the image of Christ.

Saturday, October 18, 1986

Happy 22nd Anniversary, Karen!

Mark the Plater

Dear Senator Obama,

Sir, you most probably will be our next President. With all due respect, sir, I have some concerns:

Sir, I am a born-again Christian, an evangelical, if you will. I pray for this great country of ours on a regular basis. I pray for its leaders, that they will govern under the direction of The Almighty. I pray that the Judicial branch will over-see cases and do so as they properly interpret the Constitution. I do not wish to see them legislate from the bench, as was the case in Roe vs. Wade in January, 1973.

I pray for the Legislative branch, that they pass laws, all the while keeping a keen eye on the Constitution. I pray that no one's rights be trampled, including those of the unborn.

I pray for the Executive branch, that God would lead and guide them into directions that would promote life and lberty.

Sir, I do believe in the separation of Church and State. That said, however, I do believe that the Christian has a mandate from The Almighty to evangelise this great land, calling people to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sir, my concern is that you will seek ways to hinder that cause. You have made comments in some speeches that alarm me. I feel that you hold evangelical Christianity in contempt. I see that many of your supporters do the same. How sad. How alarming.

I am a small voice, a man of meager means. It would be easy for you to ignore me and my kind. That, too, would be sad, for, you see, it is the prayers of those who pray to the Almighty in the name of His Son Jesus Christ; and also it is the evangelistic efforts of these, that keep this nation from sinking more fully into the grasp of the hosts of hell.

Thank you for your time.

A servant of Christ,
Mark Pierson

Our Daily Thread: Sarah Palin on abortion#links

Our Daily Thread: Sarah Palin on abortion#links

So ya wanna vote for Obama, eh?

http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=2630

Wake up people!

Consistent Free Grace

I've seen a lot of that term over the past year.

I wonder about some things...

Those who declare themselves such also claim that their system is the only system that allows people to view all of scripture at face value.

I see an inevitable contradiction here. Doesn't the term "Consistent Free Grace" suggest that a system is employed, and that all of scripture is then viewed through a lens?

Ashley turns 21 Today

Today, October 12, 2008 marks my lovely daughter's 21st birthday.
~Happy Birthday, Ashley

This 'N That

Coming up on October 15th is this blog's 3rd anniversary. You can see my first post here, http://mdpmusings.blogspot.com/2005/10/marks-musings.html.

In a coupla days my lovely daughter turns 21. Then, on the 18th, Karen and I will celebrate 22 years of marriage.

The election is just a short time away. Originally I was not too excited about this one. Then came "the Governor". She knows and Loves Jesus Christ. She is a Reagan Conservative. What's not to like? I don't see how McCain/Palin can win this one; but at least this election gave us an opportunity to see that people like her still exist in the political world. May the Lord be with her and her family.

I'm resigned to a Repulican loss this time around. We have that Carl Rove invention sitting in the White House right now to blame for that. Too bad he wasn't really Reaganesque.

The thought of a baby-killing, gun-hating, Christian-mocking socialist in the White House... Karen, where's the blood pressure medication?!

Question

Who is a Jew?

There does seem to be a difference of opinion amongst professing Christians on this.

Please conduct yourself in a Christian way here.

Mark

Three and a half miles: Crowns and Rewards (Part 1)

Three and a half miles: Crowns and Rewards (Part 1)

Three and a half miles: Crowns and Rewards (Part 2)

Three and a half miles: Crowns and Rewards (Part 2)

He's seen so much...

Fifty-one years ago my dad would take care of my diapers. Now, in his last stay at the hospital, it was time for me to take care of his.

Wow, the things he has seen in the mean time.

My mom and dad had two sons - myself, and my younger brother, Ron.

Throughout the '60's we were a pretty average low middle class family. We were happy, and very close-knit.

That was the '60's.

The '70's were a different story.

In that decade my dad would see the company that he had worked for for so many years decide that if supervisors did not have a college education then they were not fit for that position. Well, as it turns out, he was a supervisor, but did not have a college education. He was demoted. He went from wearing a tie to work to wearing a blue work uniform. He took it in stride. He took to polishing his workboots daily. That was the way he could maintain his dignity.

Also in that decade he would see his younger son go from job to job, thinking that each job was beneath him. He would also see that son adopt a "free-spirit" way of life. How these things pained my dad. I watched him spend time in fasting and prayer, joining his prayers with those of my mother for my brother's salvation.

That was also the decade where he saw his other son, me, almost lose his life in a serious car accident.

What a toll this was taking on him.

In the 1990's my brother began to experience blindness; also he needed a walker to get around. At this same time my mother was becoming very frail. Her congestive heart failure was becoming worse and worse. My dad was now her care-taker - he himself beginning to suffer from a nerve disorder that has now left him chair-ridden.

Then one day in May of 1999 my brother complained of a strange feeling type of head-ache; such as one he had never felt before. He told my parents that he thought he was dying. By the end of that day he was gone. My father was there as they put him on a respirator. By that time my brother's body was twitching, brain-dead. My dad was there just as they shut off the respirator, and my brother breathed his last.

Such sorrow.

Fast forward to March, 2005. Now it was his wife that was on her deathbed. He watched as his wife, gasping for air, begged me to help her breath. This woman who had led so very many to faith in Christ, who had been a helper of the brethren, a prayer warrior, was now gasping for every breath. My dad could only watch, unable to help his poor wife.

Maybe it is a good thing that his memory is gone.

This old earth is not our final home.

Dad

I want to thank those my friends who prayed for my dad. The hospital is sending him back home later today!

Thanks again for caring and praying!

Mark

Sarah Is My Hero!!!

The Gospel According To Jesus

I was talking with a free grace sister in Christ on another blog and found that she had read, and did not like, MacArthur's "The Gospel According To Jesus". During the discussion I asked her what theological system she subscribed to while reading that book. She gave her response and I noted: Interesting what you said..."I went to a Bible College for 2 years that was dispensational in it's teaching...I then attended a very good grace oriented Bible Church at that time.... Also,"Then he (MacArthur, during a radio broadcast) named some men who were wrong on the gospel. Two of those men were Charles Ryrie and Lewis Sperry Chafer."

And I went on: that gives me a feel for what brand of dispensationalism you were involved in. Whatever system we subscribe to puts us on a trajectory that determines what books and authors will either resonate with us or repulse us.

MacArthur came upon the basis for "TGATJ" while studying for an exegetical presentation in the Gospel of Matthew to present to the congregation. He determined not to follow dispensational presuppositions or any other presuppositions in the course of that study. Just a plain reading of the Word. This is why his "Lordship" findings rub classic dispensationalist's the wrong way; because they DO approach these things through presuppostional readings of the Word.

Hmmm.

Christ Crucified

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 (King James Version)
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: